1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,000
[Treehouse Friends]

2
00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:07,460
[Amit] I'm here with Dave Wiskus. He's an iOS and Mac designer.

3
00:00:07,460 --> 00:00:13,380
[Dave] Experience design and visual design not just Photoshop work and not just wireframes

4
00:00:13,380 --> 00:00:16,140
but from start-to-finish product design.

5
00:00:16,140 --> 00:00:18,140
[Amit] And how did you get started?

6
00:00:18,140 --> 00:00:22,560
[Dave] With design, I've always had--they say the eye.

7
00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:27,340
I've always had like--I pick things apart, I see things that probably would annoy other people,

8
00:00:27,340 --> 00:00:30,860
and when I repeat them often do annoy other people.

9
00:00:30,860 --> 00:00:36,560
And I met some people who were in the app-making business, and they seemed

10
00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:39,330
like cool people, and it seemed like they really loved what they were doing,

11
00:00:39,330 --> 00:00:41,820
and I felt like I should get on board with that.

12
00:00:41,820 --> 00:00:45,470
[Amit] Before you started designing apps, what were you doing?

13
00:00:45,470 --> 00:00:50,010
[Dave] I was doing sales and business development for a very, very, very

14
00:00:50,010 --> 00:00:53,330
large corporation. >>[Amit] You weren't doing anything related to design?

15
00:00:53,330 --> 00:00:56,300
[Dave] No. I've always been a creative sort of person.

16
00:00:56,300 --> 00:01:02,660
I was a musician for years--still am a musician--but no, nothing specifically design related.

17
00:01:02,660 --> 00:01:05,459
I drew a lot of pictures when I was a kid, but--

18
00:01:05,459 --> 00:01:09,360
[Amit] Why design and why app design more specifically?

19
00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,650
[Dave] I'm an Apple fan boy. I love my Mac.

20
00:01:12,650 --> 00:01:17,110
I love my iPhone. When the iPhone came out--before the SDK became available--

21
00:01:17,110 --> 00:01:20,710
there was all this talk of will there be an SDK and what will that look like?

22
00:01:20,710 --> 00:01:24,790
And seeing the potential future for apps--the idea of apps--

23
00:01:24,790 --> 00:01:27,740
things that you could do with your phone now that were never possible before--

24
00:01:27,740 --> 00:01:31,030
it was really exciting. I wanted to be a part of that.

25
00:01:31,030 --> 00:01:38,120
[Amit] You started designing for the iPhone or the Mac after the iPhone apps

26
00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:40,120
actually came out in the app store?

27
00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:42,230
[Dave] I didn't start working on Mac stuff until later.

28
00:01:42,230 --> 00:01:46,880
It was the SDK came out and months later I met some people who were app makers,

29
00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:52,610
and they put me in touch with my friend Brad Ellis--Apple design award winner--

30
00:01:52,610 --> 00:01:55,750
worked for RogueSheep, worked for Square, and now he's off doing his own thing.

31
00:01:55,750 --> 00:01:58,750
He took the time to teach me.

32
00:01:58,750 --> 00:02:00,750
[Amit] Oh, wow. Okay. So, you had a mentor.

33
00:02:00,750 --> 00:02:02,930
[Dave] I had a very, very strong, great mentor.

34
00:02:02,930 --> 00:02:07,500
The guy took a lot of time and patience to walk me through some things

35
00:02:07,500 --> 00:02:11,690
that you--with design, there's some things that you can understand intuitively,

36
00:02:11,690 --> 00:02:13,740
but they need to be codified, they need to be--

37
00:02:13,740 --> 00:02:17,390
you need to develop frameworks mentally to understand

38
00:02:17,390 --> 00:02:21,250
how A leads to B and how you can make that happen more seamlessly.

39
00:02:21,250 --> 00:02:24,290
And there's a lot of moving parts--it's not just about how something looks,

40
00:02:24,290 --> 00:02:28,790
but rather how does it feel and how do you feel while you're using it?

41
00:02:28,790 --> 00:02:33,510
[Amit] Can you walk us through a bit of that process of A through B?

42
00:02:33,510 --> 00:02:36,900
[Dave] There's a book I have on my coffee table--

43
00:02:36,900 --> 00:02:40,470
101 or 100 Things I Learned in Architecture School.

44
00:02:40,470 --> 00:02:42,470
[Amit] One hundred things you learned in architecture school?

45
00:02:42,470 --> 00:02:45,160
[Dave] I'm probably butchering that title, but it's a coffee table book,

46
00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:48,500
and it's written by a guy--every page is another thing that he learned

47
00:02:48,500 --> 00:02:53,090
in architecture school, and it's my favorite design book because it forces me--

48
00:02:53,090 --> 00:02:56,130
reading it, these are all things that apply to what I do,

49
00:02:56,130 --> 00:02:58,130
but at no point does he talk about software.

50
00:02:58,130 --> 00:03:02,750
And the best example I can give to answer your question is--I forget the term for it,

51
00:03:02,750 --> 00:03:07,350
but when you're creating a space and a person is walking from point A to point B--

52
00:03:07,350 --> 00:03:13,440
like through a courtyard--if they're walking through the entryway towards the building--

53
00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:17,900
or whatever it is--if they can always see the building the walk feels longer

54
00:03:17,900 --> 00:03:20,930
than if you were to wind the pathway around a little bit.

55
00:03:20,930 --> 00:03:25,070
And it's the idea that by showing and obscuring your target you create a more 

56
00:03:25,070 --> 00:03:27,410
interesting journey and people complain less.

57
00:03:27,410 --> 00:03:30,450
By the time they get there they feel like they've had a pleasant walk through a garden

58
00:03:30,450 --> 00:03:32,780
rather than trying to get to something.

59
00:03:32,780 --> 00:03:36,870
[Amit] How would you take that into the mobile app world?

60
00:03:36,870 --> 00:03:39,090
[Dave] That's always the trick.

61
00:03:39,090 --> 00:03:42,750
Sometimes it isn't about a person wants this, you just give it to them.

62
00:03:42,750 --> 00:03:47,520
Sometimes it's a clever animation, or it's the way you present the information

63
00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:52,290
that matters more than how quickly you present the information because the trick is

64
00:03:52,290 --> 00:03:54,100
to remember that you're creating an experience. >>[Amit] Right.

65
00:03:54,100 --> 00:03:58,660
[Dave] This isn't a simple, stupid machine that the person is using to do math.

66
00:03:58,660 --> 00:04:04,450
They're trying to solve a problem, and if you can emotionally connect to them

67
00:04:04,450 --> 00:04:08,770
and why they have this problem to begin with and why they're trying to solve--

68
00:04:08,770 --> 00:04:12,070
and how they're trying to solve this problem, you can make something that people

69
00:04:12,070 --> 00:04:15,070
don't just use as a tool but something they enjoy using.

70
00:04:15,070 --> 00:04:19,040
[Amit] It's interesting that you say emotionally connect because that's always

71
00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:22,340
never talked about when you talk about design.

72
00:04:22,340 --> 00:04:25,940
You yourself said that design does not happen in Photoshop. >>[Dave] Right.

73
00:04:25,940 --> 00:04:28,340
[Amit] So, where does design really happen?

74
00:04:28,340 --> 00:04:32,640
Is it happening when you're imagining the app?

75
00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:34,670
What is the starting point?

76
00:04:34,670 --> 00:04:38,350
If I'm to design an app--I kind of know the app that I want to create,

77
00:04:38,350 --> 00:04:41,570
but how do I start designing that app?

78
00:04:41,570 --> 00:04:43,680
Where's the starting point for that?

79
00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,450
[Dave] The starting point-- >>[Amit] If it doesn't happen in Photoshop, where does it happen?

80
00:04:46,450 --> 00:04:51,070
[Dave] It happens everywhere. It starts with the idea and you have to--

81
00:04:51,070 --> 00:04:53,440
you have to take the idea and turn it into something.

82
00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,500
And the first step for me is to write down everything that I think the app should do.

83
00:04:57,500 --> 00:05:02,900
I have field notes--a little booklet--I grab my pen, and I start writing down the problem

84
00:05:02,900 --> 00:05:06,040
that I'm trying to solve because the better I understand the problem

85
00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,040
the better I can create a solution.

86
00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:11,310
And in doing so, I'll see things that I didn't see when I was just imagining

87
00:05:11,310 --> 00:05:13,310
that it would be cool to have an app that did this.

88
00:05:13,310 --> 00:05:19,930
Somewhere in that process, you get to a comfortable place and you have something

89
00:05:19,930 --> 00:05:22,810
that--okay, it's ready to move to the next stage.

90
00:05:22,810 --> 00:05:24,950
The next stage for me is I have a white board,

91
00:05:24,950 --> 00:05:27,250
and on this white board I'll draw pictures of what the app--

92
00:05:27,250 --> 00:05:32,820
not will look like but how things might be laid out, and the idea there is to make sure

93
00:05:32,820 --> 00:05:36,990
that every piece of functionality--every button, everything that could happen that takes you

94
00:05:36,990 --> 00:05:39,450
from point A to point--is written down.

95
00:05:39,450 --> 00:05:41,780
I'll draw lines--okay, this takes you here.

96
00:05:41,780 --> 00:05:45,780
And seeing something a little bit more visually--seeing a button in the corner--

97
00:05:45,780 --> 00:05:48,910
maybe you decide, well, I kind of hate having a button there.

98
00:05:48,910 --> 00:05:50,220
Maybe it would be better if there were some other way--

99
00:05:50,220 --> 00:05:53,340
maybe there's a gesture I could use to get the same functionality--

100
00:05:53,340 --> 00:05:57,740
and then you get to a certain point where you want to see the app--

101
00:05:57,740 --> 00:06:00,460
you want to start looking at something that looks like a piece of software,

102
00:06:00,460 --> 00:06:04,620
so I'll go into Photoshop and decorate it up and get everything laid out

103
00:06:04,620 --> 00:06:06,620
and get my documents prepared.

104
00:06:06,620 --> 00:06:11,340
And the mistake is to think that once the Photoshopping is done and you hand it off

105
00:06:11,340 --> 00:06:14,800
to developers then the design is done, and the truth is that once you hand it off

106
00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:19,460
you're really just starting the design process.

107
00:06:19,460 --> 00:06:22,960
Once it's handed off to developers, then you're creating, then you're making software.

108
00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:24,960
Everything up until that is drawing pictures.

109
00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,130
Then you're making software and-- >>[Amit] You're making it come to life.

110
00:06:28,130 --> 00:06:31,360
[Dave] Right. Making software to me is the exciting part.

111
00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,210
The Photoshop stuff--whatever. I mean it's cool. I love it. It's fun.

112
00:06:34,210 --> 00:06:37,740
But the real meat of it is making software--making something that people can touch,

113
00:06:37,740 --> 00:06:42,390
and I give the developers things that they turn into real software,

114
00:06:42,390 --> 00:06:44,390
and then I get to touch it and play with it, and then I'm like--

115
00:06:44,390 --> 00:06:46,390
oh, and what if we did this? 

116
00:06:46,390 --> 00:06:48,040
And then I start getting all these ideas because I'm touching it.

117
00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:52,050
It's a visceral experience. From there-- >>[Amit] Does that piss off the designers?

118
00:06:52,050 --> 00:06:56,390
I mean the developers that--hey, you know--like your job's done.

119
00:06:56,390 --> 00:07:02,530
[Dave] No, no. I've been fortunate enough to work with developers who have

120
00:07:02,530 --> 00:07:04,890
an innate understanding of why design matters.

121
00:07:04,890 --> 00:07:09,510
And they embrace that, so when they see me saying things like the animation is just

122
00:07:09,510 --> 00:07:13,850
one-tenth of a second off--let me go in and fix it--or can we go in and fix it?

123
00:07:13,850 --> 00:07:18,660
They say yes. >>[Amit] How do you communicate animation to a developer?

124
00:07:18,660 --> 00:07:20,660
Because that's not their Photoshop, right?

125
00:07:20,660 --> 00:07:22,660
[Dave] A whole lot of hand waving.

126
00:07:22,660 --> 00:07:25,960
I want you to do this and you pull the thing down--it should go like this. It should bounce.

127
00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,950
When it falls it should bounce like twice.

128
00:07:28,950 --> 00:07:31,930
[Amit] You're almost like a director, not even just a designer.

129
00:07:31,930 --> 00:07:34,360
[Dave] Very much so. I think of it very much like being a film director, yes.

130
00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:38,710
And an animator, and there's all sorts of things that go into this,

131
00:07:38,710 --> 00:07:43,900
but yeah, director is probably the best one because it's taking the people who are involved

132
00:07:43,900 --> 00:07:47,640
in the creation of a thing, making sure they're all pointed in the same direction.

133
00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,070
We all have the same goal, right? We all want to make something great.

134
00:07:50,070 --> 00:07:52,760
We all want to make something that people enjoy using that solves their problem.

135
00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:55,160
Nobody wants to make a crappy piece of software.

136
00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:57,160
[Amit] I hope not.

137
00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:59,660
[Dave] I'm sure somebody out there wants to, but most people don't want to

138
00:07:59,660 --> 00:08:02,820
make a crappy piece of software, and the best thing to do is make sure that

139
00:08:02,820 --> 00:08:04,820
everybody is still focused on that.

140
00:08:04,820 --> 00:08:07,630
[Amit] And how do you guarantee that? >>[Dave] You can't guarantee it.

141
00:08:07,630 --> 00:08:10,850
You can't fix other people, but you can surround yourself with people who are

142
00:08:10,850 --> 00:08:13,170
good at what they do and really care about what they do,

143
00:08:13,170 --> 00:08:15,170
and things tend to work out pretty well.

144
00:08:15,170 --> 00:08:18,670
[Amit] I guess you do your wireframing on the white board, right? >>[Dave] Always.

145
00:08:18,670 --> 00:08:23,430
[Amit] It is wireframing, and your wireframing I guess never happens electronically.

146
00:08:23,430 --> 00:08:26,620
[Dave] No. For me, wireframing isn't a digital process.

147
00:08:26,620 --> 00:08:29,230
Depending on the client or what other people need to see,

148
00:08:29,230 --> 00:08:34,679
I will take pictures of things, or I will redraw it in OmniGraffle or something

149
00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,070
so they have a picture to look at, and I can point at things, and we can talk through the

150
00:08:38,070 --> 00:08:40,950
functionality, but that's not where I create.

151
00:08:40,950 --> 00:08:44,470
[Amit] Don't you want to share that wireframe with other people if it's not digital?

152
00:08:44,470 --> 00:08:46,990
You said you take pictures of it to share it.

153
00:08:46,990 --> 00:08:51,370
[Dave] Or I'll redraw it, and I guess what I--it can be converted to digital,

154
00:08:51,370 --> 00:08:55,160
but that's not where I create the wireframes--at least for me, I need a white board

155
00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:57,510
because I need to pace around and do weird things with my hands and 

156
00:08:57,510 --> 00:09:02,610
think through things--and do a lot of staring at the ceiling, thinking--

157
00:09:02,610 --> 00:09:05,850
and if I'm in front of my computer then I can't pace around.

158
00:09:05,850 --> 00:09:09,030
I can't feel the room the way that I can if I'm in front of my white board.

159
00:09:09,030 --> 00:09:13,480
You get that like a beautiful mind thing where you need to feel like you're a crazy genius,

160
00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:21,070
and there's some truth to that sense of motion and momentum--inertia--

161
00:09:21,070 --> 00:09:24,870
like the movement of it helps to keep me focused and motivated.

162
00:09:24,870 --> 00:09:30,080
[Amit] What about prototyping tools, because there are a lot of these tools that are coming

163
00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:33,950
out--they're saying you can have these interactive prototypes where you can take the

164
00:09:33,950 --> 00:09:41,080
Photoshop and make it more visceral without having a developer code it.

165
00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:45,160
[Dave] If you don't have a developer, then yeah, absolutely--that's a great way to go.

166
00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:48,640
Anytime you can see something in the context of what it's going to be--

167
00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,180
so don't look at a Photoshop document and think of it as software because

168
00:09:52,180 --> 00:09:54,320
you're never going to think of that as software. >>[Amit] Right.

169
00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:56,330
[Dave] You're not going to think of it as software until you're using it because

170
00:09:56,330 --> 00:09:59,000
what it looks like is only part of the bigger picture.

171
00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,870
The sooner you can be touching something and seeing how it works and how people

172
00:10:02,870 --> 00:10:05,900
will connect with it, the better off the end product will be.

173
00:10:05,900 --> 00:10:10,240
So yeah, by all means--if you don't have a developer to begin the development process

174
00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:16,030
earlier in the design process, find a way to prototype it--even if it is just as simple as

175
00:10:16,030 --> 00:10:20,370
having a bunch of comps set up in--saved to a photos app 

176
00:10:20,370 --> 00:10:22,630
where you can just swipe through them. >>[Amit] Oh. Okay.

177
00:10:22,630 --> 00:10:24,920
[Dave] Your fingers on glass is the important part.

178
00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:28,080
The goal--it's always going to be fingers on glass. >>[Amit] Right.

179
00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,080
[Dave] Pictures under glass.

180
00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:35,210
When you're touching it, your hope is that the user forgets that they're touching glass.

181
00:10:35,210 --> 00:10:38,810
When you use the calculator app, you're not thinking about your fingers touching glass.

182
00:10:38,810 --> 00:10:41,620
You're thinking about touching the buttons on a calculator.

183
00:10:41,620 --> 00:10:46,260
It becomes the object rather than just projecting something.

184
00:10:46,260 --> 00:10:49,550
And you want to create that illusion. It's all magic at the end of the day.

185
00:10:49,550 --> 00:10:54,950
It's all slight of hand. >>[Amit] It is giving that feel of hardware in a software form.

186
00:10:54,950 --> 00:10:57,950
[Dave] Right. That's why skeumorphism is so popular right now.

187
00:10:57,950 --> 00:11:00,610
[Amit] That was going to be one of my next questions, actually.

188
00:11:00,610 --> 00:11:05,240
What do you think about it? Skeumorphism is basically what?

189
00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,240
Can you first just define that?

190
00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:11,810
[Dave] Presenting something digital as if it were something real

191
00:11:11,810 --> 00:11:14,610
is the way I would define it. >>[Amit] Like the calendar app.

192
00:11:14,610 --> 00:11:19,270
[Dave] The calendar app with its little torn edges of paper up at the top,

193
00:11:19,270 --> 00:11:22,040
iBooks where you're flipping pages--that's a skeumorphic design.

194
00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:26,940
Anything that emulates the real life equivalent would be considered skeumorphic.

195
00:11:26,940 --> 00:11:28,940
[Amit] Or even the calculator app. 

196
00:11:28,940 --> 00:11:29,710
[Dave] Calculator--yeah, because it looks like a calculator.

197
00:11:29,710 --> 00:11:32,790
It has a real life feel.

198
00:11:32,790 --> 00:11:38,000
I think it's fine. I think it gets a bad rap because some designers have taken it too far,

199
00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:42,160
and they've done a really terrible job at making things feel the way they look.

200
00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:46,620
A good example of this is the address book where you can't turn the--

201
00:11:46,620 --> 00:11:49,790
maybe you can now, but you couldn't turn the pages.

202
00:11:49,790 --> 00:11:54,810
It looked like a book with pages, but if you went to swipe, it tried to delete the information.

203
00:11:54,810 --> 00:11:56,810
[Amit] Right. It still does that. >>[Dave] Swipe to edit.

204
00:11:56,810 --> 00:11:58,810
Which is insane. You made it look like a book.

205
00:11:58,810 --> 00:12:03,730
Why a skeumorphic visual design but but not skeumorphic interaction?

206
00:12:03,730 --> 00:12:05,730
I think that that's the disconnect.

207
00:12:05,730 --> 00:12:08,470
Find My Friends--that weird leather texture-- >>[Amit] I hate that.

208
00:12:08,470 --> 00:12:10,750
[Dave] Everybody hates that.

209
00:12:10,750 --> 00:12:12,750
But if you think about it from Apple's perspective, 

210
00:12:12,750 --> 00:12:15,950
if you're going to create something like that, you don't want it to look like

211
00:12:15,950 --> 00:12:19,550
a creepy stalker tool, and you don't want it to look like a nerdy radar tool.

212
00:12:19,550 --> 00:12:21,660
You want it to look like something that real people would use.

213
00:12:21,660 --> 00:12:24,510
[Amit] There are a lot of designers that say it's a cop out.

214
00:12:24,510 --> 00:12:28,000
[Dave] Skeumorphism? >>[Amit] Yes. 

215
00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,710
[Dave] I think it's a bridge. We live in a physical world.

216
00:12:31,710 --> 00:12:34,400
It's becoming a digital world, but it's still a physical world.

217
00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:40,640
People understand how a calculator works.

218
00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:42,750
When you pick up a calculator you know that those are buttons and you can 

219
00:12:42,750 --> 00:12:44,750
press them, and your fingers would touch those.

220
00:12:44,750 --> 00:12:50,910
My mother knows when she looks at a desktop calendar how that works.

221
00:12:50,910 --> 00:12:55,590
Maybe the best way to present this information is in a way that people already understand.

222
00:12:55,590 --> 00:12:59,970
We have to--as young technology people, we have to get over this idea that

223
00:12:59,970 --> 00:13:03,970
everybody understands things the way that we do, because they don't. >>[Amit] They don't.

224
00:13:03,970 --> 00:13:07,930
[Dave] For most people, the idea of technology or a computer is still kind of scary.

225
00:13:07,930 --> 00:13:12,460
And to offer them a hand--an olive branch--to say things are going to be okay.

226
00:13:12,460 --> 00:13:14,710
It's all going to work out. We are thinking about you.

227
00:13:14,710 --> 00:13:18,960
That can go a long way to making people comfortable with the move to technology.

228
00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:27,210
In my talk, I went over the floppy disk as save because it was a picture of the thing

229
00:13:27,210 --> 00:13:31,850
that you're saving to. With the phone app there's a drawing--there's an outline of a phone.

230
00:13:31,850 --> 00:13:35,550
It looks nothing like a modern phone, but we can recognize it as that was the

231
00:13:35,550 --> 00:13:38,530
physical thing, now it's a digital thing.

232
00:13:38,530 --> 00:13:40,440
The music app used to be called iPod, and there's a picture of an iPod.

233
00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:44,100
The physical thing became software. Now it's no longer a picture of the iPod.

234
00:13:44,100 --> 00:13:48,640
It's all showing us something that we understand and guiding us to the thing

235
00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:52,150
that we don't yet understand so that we can. We can get there.

236
00:13:52,150 --> 00:13:54,150
We just won't today. >>[Amit] Right.

237
00:13:54,150 --> 00:13:58,040
And the new generation will probably never get those references, right?

238
00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,140
[Dave] No. And that's okay because-- >>[Amit] They didn't grow up with those things.

239
00:14:01,140 --> 00:14:06,390
[Dave] They're going to grow up using iPhones and using iPads and whatever else,

240
00:14:06,390 --> 00:14:09,770
and it's just going to make sense to them in the same way that I'm sure you and I

241
00:14:09,770 --> 00:14:12,870
grew up playing video games or watching TV.

242
00:14:12,870 --> 00:14:15,520
My grandparents did neither of those things.

243
00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:23,430
[Amit] What tips and tricks would you offer to someone that's starting out 

244
00:14:23,430 --> 00:14:26,260
designing iPhone apps? Or iPad apps, for that matter.

245
00:14:26,260 --> 00:14:28,260
[Dave] Love what you do.

246
00:14:28,260 --> 00:14:33,210
Whatever it is you're getting into this for, it should primarily be that you just love--

247
00:14:33,210 --> 00:14:37,160
if it's iOS design--love the phone. Love Apple.

248
00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,510
Don't love them blindly but love what they're doing.

249
00:14:39,510 --> 00:14:44,190
Love that vision. Love that sensibility about how you connect with people with technology.

250
00:14:44,190 --> 00:14:46,190
Love the apps that you use on your phone.

251
00:14:46,190 --> 00:14:48,190
Love the way you use your phone.

252
00:14:48,190 --> 00:14:51,260
And then love it so much that you can't help but want to create something for it

253
00:14:51,260 --> 00:14:53,820
and be a part of that. 

254
00:14:53,820 --> 00:14:57,420
More practically speaking, the best piece of advice I can give is get out there and

255
00:14:57,420 --> 00:14:59,690
meet people. >>[Amit] Meet people? >>[Dave] Meet people.

256
00:14:59,690 --> 00:15:01,990
Go to conferences. Go to meet ups. Go to designer meet ups.

257
00:15:01,990 --> 00:15:03,990
Go to developer meet ups. 

258
00:15:03,990 --> 00:15:08,320
Even if you're not a developer, go meet developers because those guys will

259
00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,360
have all sorts of stuff that needs to be designed, and you can probably find some work there.

260
00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:15,950
[Amit] Do you recommend just doing design work for free in the beginning?

261
00:15:15,950 --> 00:15:19,680
[Dave] I would recommend--free is the wrong word.

262
00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,620
It's a bad word. I don't like anybody working for free.

263
00:15:22,620 --> 00:15:25,220
But when you're learning--when you're just starting out,

264
00:15:25,220 --> 00:15:29,460
you don't want to work for free but there's a different kind of payment--

265
00:15:29,460 --> 00:15:34,060
and that can be experience--where if you're a brand new designer and you've never

266
00:15:34,060 --> 00:15:37,240
done this sort of thing before, if you partner up with a developer who's also fairly new

267
00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,700
you can learn together. You're not creating something for them to go and use.

268
00:15:40,700 --> 00:15:42,860
It's about learning and creating together.

269
00:15:42,860 --> 00:15:48,300
Look for mentors. Look for people to--I had a mentor, and it served me tremendously.

270
00:15:48,300 --> 00:15:52,580
[Amit] We wish we all had mentors like that.

271
00:15:52,580 --> 00:15:54,770
[Dave] Find people who--it's not that hard.

272
00:15:54,770 --> 00:15:59,000
If you go out, this community is really good about being open and embracing new people.

273
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:03,810
Because we're all kind of new people. There are no 30-year veterans of the iOS industry.

274
00:16:03,810 --> 00:16:05,810
[Amit] It's not that old. >>[Dave] Right. Exactly.

275
00:16:05,810 --> 00:16:09,960
There are no old school, I-remember-back-in-the-day people because there was no

276
00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:11,960
back in the day. 

277
00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:16,370
This is still young enough that you can go and you can be the first big whatever.

278
00:16:16,370 --> 00:16:19,080
There's still plenty of firsts to be had.

279
00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,760
Or at least seconds. >>[Amit] Well, that's a beautiful note to end on.

280
00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,140
Thanks a lot for doing this interview.

281
00:16:25,140 --> 00:16:27,140
[Dave] Thank you.

282
00:16:27,140 --> 00:16:32,510
[Treehouse Friends]