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I'm here with Jonathan Ozeran. 

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[treehouse] [FRIENDS] He's a product designer out of Rexland. 

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Can you give us a brief history about yourself 

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and how you got started in the app design world? 

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I'd been a part of the application space for a while across a number of different industries,

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[Jonathan Ozeran, Mobile Product Designer]

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starting primarily with media, having done a few things with social platforms as they evolved--

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Facebook platform particularly. 

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Before that, was building applications that made the infrastructure available

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in ways that provided that data for any type of application to use. 

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From media, that led me to a number of different industries

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to try and solve problems through mobility. 

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construction, automotive, field service. 

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And now, currently trying to solve the opportunity at least for campus recruiting 

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and university recruiting--how you apply mobility to that. 

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So, you said you come from the web world, right? 

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I mean, you built social applications on the web side. 

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So, how was the transition going from web to mobile? 

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Was it easy? Was it hard? Are there certain things about the mobile aspects that just provide

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things that are not offered on the web side? 

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I think coming from the web world, you want to expose content in a way

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that's valuable and useful socially, of course--with the social platforms--

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but with mobility, you have to be thinking about how those users

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are going to use the application, 

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when, with what device capabilities, and to ease into that. 

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So, exposing the data and making it available is one thing, 

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and doing it securely and reliably. 

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Going forward, you get to focus--as a product designer--

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on how those applications can best solve those problems for those end users. 

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So, what are some of the challenges you face as an

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application designer when you're solving a problem? 

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Like, what are the tools that you have to solve those problems? 

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So, I think for me, with business applications in particular, 

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you want to have dialogues and conversations with the end users. 

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You don't want to make too many assumptions. 

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You want to be able to rapidly iterate your product,

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have a version that's shipped and out there in the hands of users. 

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And, probably one of the most rewarding things for me in enterprise mobility

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is being able to issue that application out to someone--

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or just deploy it--so you can actively get that feedback. 

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With consumer facing apps, you can do it, but you have to wait.  

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You might not get the feedback from the users you were expecting. 

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It's a whole different challenge. 

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So, do you still do a beta release with an enterprise application

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like you would do with a consumer? 

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Sure. 

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It's harder to do with a consumer app on the mobile side, 

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at least on the Apple ecosystem. 

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Sure. In my experience, I've seen pilot groups work really well, 

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where you have some champions or even cheerleaders

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who are very excited about the initiative and want to support it out of the gate,

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and then they want to get stories and testimonials and examples to go move forward

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and make it a larger deployment. 

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So, do you find on the enterprise side, are there more political barriers to get an app out? 

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Because you can't just--I mean, on the consumer side, I have an idea. 

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I put it out there, and I see if it's successful or not. 

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I mean, it's of course, there's a long road for me to go from point A to point B, 

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but on the enterprise side, it seems like point A--you have the idea, 

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but you have to gain consensus or the political clout to put that idea to fruition

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in the hands of your consumers, which are your enterprise users. 

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So, I've had the luxury of having those champions--whether they're CIOs, 

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CMOs, heads of business, heads of technology, and even IT--

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really create that path that the organization might be able to benefit from, 

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and really I suppose get around some of those typical obstacles. 

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I think the challenge is really getting all of the users that are going to use the application

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out in the field to enjoy it, to think, "This is the only way forward." 

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"I never want to go back and fall into my old routine and my old habit." 

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So, that's I think, most of the challenge with product design in the enterprise. 

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You're certainly going to run up against obstacles where organizations may--

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this may be the first foray into enterprise mobility. 

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They don't know how to do device management and provisioning quite well, 

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or this is their first application for it. 

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But those are things you can ease into and solve

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as long as communication is strong between groups. 

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Now, have you found that enterprises are--I would not say reluctant--but

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is it that there are certain things the mobile side can do that the web cannot

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for an enterprise? Because I mean, there's always that question, right?

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Like, why should I go mobile--or native for developers--

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Why don't I just create a web app and put a wrapper around it and

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you know--make it native? 

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Many of the applications that I've been a part of focus on convenience. 

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Focus on solving a problem in a way that the user doesn't have to even worry about thinking, 

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"How do I use this application?"

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I pick it up and innately know it's going to help me. 

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It's going to be something I can respond to quickly and don't have to worry about. 

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I don't get lost in a sea of icons and buttons and text strings, etc. 

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It's now just second nature, 

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much like a lot of the applications that we've come to understand on a consumer side. 

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Can you give us an example? 

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On the enterprise side, I think one in particular being able to have applications that

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allow you to collect information about energy audits, as an example. 

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You're going to go out to a field setting and maybe you do this 3 or 4 times a day, 

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and you're traveling to do it. 

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You might use a clipboard or you might use a piece of paper to collect that information,

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and that information for one, can be lost if you lose the piece of paper. 

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Two, if it rains you lose the information that you spent hours

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and potentially a lot of money collecting, 

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and you can't share it immediately. 

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It has to be faxed or scanned or copied or e-mailed, 

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and typically you see coordinators involved in that process

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to make sure the information funnels into whatever back-end systems appropriately. 

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With an iPad, with an data plan, or with a reliable WiFi connection, 

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you can create an input that make this seamless. 

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That you use elements of UI design and human interface guidelines that Apple has created, 

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for example, that make this application as easy as picking up the settings app, for example, 

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 the device that's built in. 

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Right. So, you mention energy audits. That seems like a very dry application 

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because you're just collecting data. 

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So, how important is design--when I say design,

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I really mean like making it beautiful or pretty.

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Is that important in an enterprise app or is that time that--you know--

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enterprises say like, "We don't really care to spend all that time in making it pretty." 

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Absolutely. So, that's the fun part of being a product designer in the enterprise. 

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You get to surprise and delight. 

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You get to decide what is that threshold of functionality, focus--you know, 

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laser focus for that particular version of the application--

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and what are those special features or special visual nuances that will really--

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down the line when someone's using the application for that 6th hour in a row, 

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that will make it easier on them. 

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It will just be something that they go, "That was really special."

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"It was nice to see in an application."

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That will payoff in the long run, because they won't use the application once and put it away.

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They're going to come back to it. 

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And repeat use is really important and a very hard problem in the enterprise  to solve. 

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Well--I mean, they have to repeatedly use the app

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because that is something that's part of their job now.

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Ideally, but we've also seen situations where an application is out there,

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the enterprise has solved the deployment issue,

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a number of devices out in the field, and you have end users who, for whatever reason, 

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are more comfortable using the old approach--

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the paper, the clipboard--

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and then the take a device that was purchased--a very expensive device--

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and send it home for the kids to play with. 

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And so you're always against that challenge of top of mind, rapid iteration, 

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improving the functionality, improving the usability. 

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You've never really going to nail it on the first version. 

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So, it is important to have good user experience and good design, even on the enterprise side? 

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Absolutely. I think you have to be thinking about those primary use cases

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that your application end users are going to need. 

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You, of course, have to solve some of the problems of getting the data

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in the formats that you need and exposing it securely and reliably,

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but ultimately it's that interface that someone's going to use 

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when they walk away from their desk, when they're out in the field.

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In our case, we have end users who are standing for hours and hours and hours

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collecting information in a much more reliable way where they can share it 

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and it can be available in real time and provide some analytics

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that have never been available before. 

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So, what are some of the key takeaways between the consumer 

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and the enterprise app side of things? 

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I mean, of course, there are the pros and cons on each side. 

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I think with consumer, you get to decide or even paint the picture of the personas 

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that you think are going to use the application. 

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When you put something in the app store or Android Market and now Play, 

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you don't really know necessarily who's going to download your app and be that end user. 

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With the enterprise, you get to do more upfront research, conversation, 

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and understand the psychology of the problem and understand the psychology of the end user. 

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Where are they going to grow frustrated? Will it be easy the first time the pick up the app?

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And will it be as easy the 7th time they pick up the app and start using it?

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So, those are some of the things that you have to balance between consumer and enterprise.

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Distribution and management--of course with the consumer side, you have the app store 

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and you have some review processes. 

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In enterprise, if you own all the devices and manage them, 

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you can distribute whatever you want immediately and it's just generally available. 

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So, you have some perks in terms of iterating your product. 

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You discover a bug or a crash, you can solve it nearly instantaneously

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and roll out a new version. 

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And there's none of that Apple app store filter, right? 

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Certain ways to distribute applications: custom B to B apps, for example.

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There are some routes that expose that and make that available as an option.  

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In my experience, I've seen the enterprise distribution model more often. 

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What advice would you give to someone that's kind of starting out with app development? 

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Should they be like looking at focusing either side or just start building apps? 

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It's important to look back and see how things have progressed and iterated over time. 

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I think there are some development, even design considerations, 

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you would have made in 2008-2009 that are vastly different here in 2012,

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and a year from now will probably be even more unique in nature. 

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So, from a design and development perspective, keep the evolution of a platform in mind

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to see how you can make the best decisions versus having to run into some obstacles 

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previously solved and encountered. 

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Can you give us an example of that? 

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Sure. So, there are some new things that are--

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and this is timely with IOS6 that has become available--

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in terms of how to flow rows and columns, for example--

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For the auto layouts? 

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layouts, exactly, and some of the frameworks that are now available. 

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You'd have to find a better way to do that on your own. 

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You may have asked some of your peers and community members, 

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you know "What's the route that you suggest to take?" 

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Now, things have evolved where that challenge has been hit so many times 

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it's now part of the platform. 

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So, I think there are a lot of examples of this--

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whether it's accessibility to the camera, making the flash available--

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little nuances that will frustrate a developer an endless amount

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that are now ironed out with some of that time. 

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Well, it makes it easier also. I mean, because like with Objective-C, 

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you had to manually manage all that memory and now you don't. 

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So, it's become easier and easier to become an IOS developer. 

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Sure, and with ARC--to your point--with memory management

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and now some of the new features of XCode 4.5 that allow you to do the auto synthesize 

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of all the instance--it's great. 

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It also takes some of the understanding away and makes it automatic. 

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So, if you're getting into it for the first time, you kind of want to go back and go--

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all right, I can see why they've done this, and I can see why it took so long

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to make that happen magically. 

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It's also easy to just skip that, too sometimes, as a new developer. 

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True. I also think for folks that are just getting into this space 

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it's really important to to understand why they're doing this. 

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I think there's a lot of excitement around programming in general, which is great, 

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around the world. 

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People want to understand the startup culture--think it might be something for them, 

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but it's also a two-edged sword. 

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I think you need to keep in mind why you're doing this.

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Is it exciting? Why are you passionate about it? Why is it fun? 

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Because otherwise, you're not going to create the best solution,

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and you're just going to become one of a sea of developers out there. 

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You really want to change the game, specifically in the enterprise. 

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You want to create the best solution for a problem. 

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On the consumer side, you want to create the best application for that particular 

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use case that you're really passionate about. 

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So, that's interesting because that plays right into my next question

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which is--because you've built a lot of teams of developers and designers. 

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So what are some of the things that you look for in a good developer? 

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And a good designer, of course? 

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Of course. I really like designers who want to be developers

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and developers who want to be designers. 

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I think that's been a really unique scenario that I've seen play out a couple times. 

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You always want to understand what you don't know and vice versa. 

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And kind of being in the middle of that where I've actively developed in the past, 

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and now I focus on the product design more often,  

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it's a unique set of traits, and it's even a unique opportunity to share stories, 

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to share experiences with one another, 

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and in a community setting, you really want to have all of those different pieces available 

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to you to learn the most and to have the most opportunity. 

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So, when you're looking to hire a good developer, 

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what is that one thing that kind of stands out? 

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Are you just reading their resume--I mean, you know, it's like when you're talking 

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it's intuition, of course, when you're interviewing that developer. 

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But there's something that someone always looks for

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and everyone has their own little quirks that they look for. 

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So, I would say as a startup--and I can't speak to the other sides of it--

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and certainly we're helping our customers--Fortune 1000 and others--

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to recruit and retain the best talent in the world. 

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I think from a startup perspective you need to have people that 

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are almost like family or even family. 

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You want people who are passionate and excited about what they do, 

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and could not be doing anything else. 

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It's their dream. 

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I've had folks express to me, "I am living my dream." 

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And that's I think what the hardest thing to find is. 

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So, you can't really measure the passion, though,

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when you're interviewing someone. 

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I think during the interview process itself you have to be meticulous.

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You have to involve not just yourself but a number of your other teammates.

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Because if you bring in the wrong element, it can ruin the organization. 

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It can ruin the product. 

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It can set you off course for quite some time. 

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Technically, there are many, many different ways to assess your capabilities, 

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your expertise.

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I don't want to speak necessarily to those.

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There are a number of opportunities out there--code evaluations and tests

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and bring someone into a room in wipe board challenges. 

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Do you do any of those? 

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Certainly, we've done a number of different things over time, 

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but for me--I'm most particular about the passion and energy level

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and excitement about why you are looking to make these contributions in the group 

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or the organization I'm with. 

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But, sometimes you're starting out as a developer, 

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and I mean, you've never developed an iPhone app and you've just started learning it

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and you want to get the opportunity to get into a good place where you can shine. 

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I've seen very successful internships where folks come in with a miscellaneous set of 

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experiences--whether it's Python, maybe dabbled in Ruby, 

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messed around in XCode occasionally, 

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but doesn't really understand who interface builder works, 

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storyboards are sort of intimidating.

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But, those are things you can ramp up pretty quickly when you have the fundamentals.

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When you have the basics, and when you have that passion behind you. 

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What about designers? 

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With designers, I've had wonderful success working with folks who've started 

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in the print world. 

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I think print world takes into account different lighting, 

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different scenarios where this is going to be consumed, 

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different fonts and typography, 

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understanding layout, and--as auto layout, for example--

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changed the way you interact with an application on device to device, 

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that becomes even more important. 

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So, on the design side, print is a really good place to start. 

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That's very interesting that you say print, because print is so static, 

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and--you know--the mobile world is so visceral. 

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It's like you have to touch, feel--there's animation. 

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It's like totally different medium, too. 

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I think what's interesting to me--print is limited screen real estate to me. 

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It may be a piece of paper--however the interface exposes itself.

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You have content that you need to deliver in a certain way and message a certain way, 

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much like with a web app, mobile app, social app. 

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You want to convey something. 

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It may be dynamic information. It might be static. 

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You still have to create that experience. 

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You want the user to be completely immersed in that experience,

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and I think that's where some of that print experience comes through. 

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So, you see that designer go from print to mobile--their transition's pretty fluent, 

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or they serve challenges? 

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Sure. In my experience, it's been very helpful to have that coming in. 

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The other interesting thing that I've observed--

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you want to know exactly what element of design you want to focus on. 

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It's important not to bundle everyone into one bucket, right? 

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So, UI, UX, motion design--

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you probably don't want one person to do all three. 

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You really want to focus on the usability, 

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how you progress from screen to screen, 

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and from path to path, 

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folks are going to be focused on putting on a wall, for example,

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all the different paths a user can take so they don't get lost, 

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they don't get frustrated, 

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and then you're going to want to apply artistry. 

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You're going to want to apply a layer of polish and magic, 

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and that's where the UI comes in. 

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And once you've had those pieces put together, 

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and with the blessing of your development team unless you're kind of a hybrid design developer, 

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you're going to want to pull in a motion designer to really take the story end to end, 

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put the storyboards together to say, "Here's how it's solving a problem." 

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"Here's how this application can now do 

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something that has not been able to be done before," 

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and allow you to create a foundation to work from--that version 1 on. 

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Lastly, I want to touch a bit on analytics, because I know you've done a bit of those too. 

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What are some of the key metrics that you look for

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when you're building an app and putting it out there, 

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and some of the things that app developers should 

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consider when they put out a consumer app

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or even an enterprise app, for that matter? 

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I've also been able to see the evolution of social and mobile app analytics. 

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So, it's been interesting to see how a Google analytics, an Omniture now part of Adobe, 

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and Flurry, amongst other solutions out there, 

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are made available to solve this analytics problem. 

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To expose information available that you can create the next best product feature.

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You can maybe remove a feature if it's not being used and no longer is relevant. 

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I think for enterprise applications, the more you can take in, 

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the more you can understand, the more you can track

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from a server perspective, the more value you will get. 

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So, when we're trying to determine those KPIs--those key performance indicators--

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we're doing it from a system perspective. 

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This one mobile application is just one consumer of an API. 

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It's a third party client, and we want to understand it uniquely,

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but it's just one third party. 

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I may have other applications I'm creating for different devices and different users. 

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So, it's really important to design an infrastructure, 

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design an architecture that's flexible. 

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You can do even tracking. 

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You could do screen tracking, page tracking--whatever it might be--

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and there's a wealth of solutions out there or you can build your own. 

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So, I know you mentioned Google Analytics and Flurry--

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do you have anything one over the other or equally good? 

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I think it really depends.

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From a mobile analytics perspective, you don't want anything to really bog down the application. 

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So, you'll want things to be intelligently dispatching the data collection. 

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You're going to want to use the best maybe third party frameworks or plugins that

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may be out there to be able to collect this information. 

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In our case, we do some of this a little bit more custom, 

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so as to make the interface never lock, never impose a restriction from a UI perspective

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where a user can't go from one screen to another. 

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So, it just depends I guess on the user and the application. 

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So, like going back to some of the key performance indicators, 

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do you recommend like tracking opens, installs, you mentioned events, 

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like what kind of events?

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One particular application--I'll give you as a kind of reference point--

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was an application that was designed to find the stars on the 

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Hollywood Walk of Fame in Los Angeles. 

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And I thought it would be remarkable--whether it was using an application

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with a search interface for iPhone, 

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or even--this was an augmented reality optimized app, 

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so I could hold it up in Los Angeles and see where the stars were, 

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and it would allow me to--it would walk me there. 

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I wanted to know who was doing that. 

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It was a very experimental feature, brand new to the device.

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It was trendy. 

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I didn't think a lot of people were going to start using it. 

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This is in the case of the Los Angeles Times, 

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we were going to apply some marketing efforts to it and street teams, 

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and I wanted to see how the application use would evolve--would change--

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depending on how those marketing tactics were applied. 

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And so this application was essentially end to end supported by analytics. 

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I could see screen by screen how users were going from one to the next. 

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If they were going from Bill Cosby to the next star--whatever it might be--

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I could follow along with their unique app experiences, 

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and while I didn't know the particular person, 

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each of those experiences told a different story. 

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And so I could see how people found their way through search, 

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found their way through the augmented reality scenarios, 

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where the GPS wasn't enabled, the device didn't have a GPS--

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all of those things become data points 

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for you to create the next best iteration or best product. 

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So, did that help you actually evolve the product over time? 

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To add features or to move features? 

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Definitely, and we also had the advantage of those street teams 

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getting conversations back to the development team, back to the design team, 

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to share those stories. 

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Oh, so you had people on the ground talking to these--

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[Jonathan Ozeran, Mobile Product Designer] That was helpful as well. 

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In an enterprise, it is infinitely helpful as well. 

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Thanks, Jonathan, for doing this. 

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This was very insightful for us. 

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It was my pleasure. 

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?music? [treehouse] [FRIENDS]