1 00:00:00,171 --> 00:00:05,547 [MUSIC] 2 00:00:05,547 --> 00:00:07,996 >> Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Treehouse Friends. 3 00:00:07,996 --> 00:00:11,500 I'm Dan Gorgone, one of the teaching leaders here at Treehouse. 4 00:00:11,500 --> 00:00:14,710 And we're joined today by Paul Boag, co-founder of Headscape. 5 00:00:14,710 --> 00:00:15,600 Paul, thanks for comin'. 6 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:16,310 >> No problem. 7 00:00:16,310 --> 00:00:17,530 Really good to be here. 8 00:00:17,530 --> 00:00:19,770 >> Paul, can you tell us about your experience as 9 00:00:19,770 --> 00:00:23,815 a designer, and with working with hundreds of clients at Headscape? 10 00:00:23,815 --> 00:00:25,110 >> Mm-hm. 11 00:00:25,110 --> 00:00:26,530 Wow. 12 00:00:26,530 --> 00:00:30,820 You want me to sum up you know, what is it, nearly 20 years of web design 13 00:00:30,820 --> 00:00:32,840 in, in. >> Maybe 140 characters, like a tweet. 14 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:33,840 >> 140 characters. >> Yeah. 15 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:36,170 >> I enjoy it, it's good. They go. 16 00:00:36,170 --> 00:00:37,340 How about that? >> Excellent. 17 00:00:37,340 --> 00:00:39,815 Can you expand upon it, maybe a blog post now. 18 00:00:39,815 --> 00:00:41,060 >> [LAUGH] Okay, okay. 19 00:00:41,060 --> 00:00:44,520 I absolutely love working with clients. I'm a bit weird like that. 20 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:45,820 You get a lot of web designers 21 00:00:45,820 --> 00:00:48,580 that complain, don't they, about their clients and. 22 00:00:48,580 --> 00:00:49,590 Hate clients. 23 00:00:49,590 --> 00:00:51,100 Working with clients is horrible. 24 00:00:51,100 --> 00:00:53,330 And they wish that they could go and, you 25 00:00:53,330 --> 00:00:55,730 know, set up tree house or something like that. 26 00:00:55,730 --> 00:00:58,200 But personally, I really enjoy working with clients. 27 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:02,730 I feel that, find it a really rewarding experience to take. 28 00:01:02,730 --> 00:01:06,270 It's almost a, a teaching thing. Almost a little bit like what you guys do. 29 00:01:06,270 --> 00:01:08,300 That you have a client come in that really 30 00:01:08,300 --> 00:01:11,270 doesn't have a good understanding of now the web works. 31 00:01:11,270 --> 00:01:13,320 They need this website. 32 00:01:13,320 --> 00:01:16,720 And I get to educate them, and take them through the process. 33 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:18,310 And at the end of it, hopefully they 34 00:01:18,310 --> 00:01:20,910 end up with this website that they absolutely love, 35 00:01:20,910 --> 00:01:24,410 that they're really enthusiastic about and they understand 36 00:01:24,410 --> 00:01:26,900 why the website is the way it is. 37 00:01:26,900 --> 00:01:31,770 So, you know, I don't believe in going away and, and creating magic 38 00:01:31,770 --> 00:01:36,950 without the client being involved, and then presenting a design and going ta-da. 39 00:01:36,950 --> 00:01:38,750 Here's the magic moment. 40 00:01:38,750 --> 00:01:41,950 Instead, I work really collaboratively with clients and I 41 00:01:41,950 --> 00:01:45,170 will engage them in every step of the process. 42 00:01:45,170 --> 00:01:46,140 They're learning along 43 00:01:46,140 --> 00:01:46,990 the way. 44 00:01:46,990 --> 00:01:49,600 So I mood board with them, I wire frame with them. 45 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:51,780 We discuss business objectives together. 46 00:01:51,780 --> 00:01:53,840 We talk about users together. 47 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:56,630 I try and get them involved in user testing. 48 00:01:56,630 --> 00:01:58,800 I really include the client as much as possible. 49 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:02,210 So when the, they get this final website. 50 00:02:02,210 --> 00:02:05,370 A, they feel like it's there website that they're passionate about. 51 00:02:05,370 --> 00:02:08,880 And B they are, they've learned along the way and 52 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,440 they understand why the website is the way it is. 53 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:15,730 >> Well speaking of learning you were in recently with us here in the studio. 54 00:02:15,730 --> 00:02:16,150 >> Yeah. 55 00:02:16,150 --> 00:02:22,030 >> And delivering some content about running a successful web design business. 56 00:02:22,030 --> 00:02:25,190 Something that you've done for now over a dozen years. 57 00:02:25,190 --> 00:02:26,010 >> Yeah, yeah. 58 00:02:26,010 --> 00:02:30,110 >> What can members expect from that series of videos? 59 00:02:30,110 --> 00:02:34,200 >> Well, I've got this you, what you want me 60 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,470 to do now, is show that how great, and how wonderful 61 00:02:36,470 --> 00:02:39,098 it is. And, but I'm gonna lower expectations. 62 00:02:39,098 --> 00:02:40,910 [LAUGH] All right? 63 00:02:40,910 --> 00:02:44,140 There is no guarantee that if you, if you do this 64 00:02:44,140 --> 00:02:47,700 particular course, that you're gonna with a successful web design business. 65 00:02:47,700 --> 00:02:53,570 But what I do do, is I do share my experiences of what's worked for me. 66 00:02:53,570 --> 00:02:57,610 The reason I don't, I think you can't say you'll definitely walk away with 67 00:02:57,610 --> 00:02:59,370 a successful web design business is because 68 00:02:59,370 --> 00:03:01,490 it depends on your definition of success, 69 00:03:01,490 --> 00:03:02,340 doesn't it? 70 00:03:02,340 --> 00:03:07,500 What I may consider to be a successful web design business might be different to you. 71 00:03:07,500 --> 00:03:10,080 But, we will look at all kinds of subjects 72 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:13,070 that will certainly help you create a good foundation. 73 00:03:13,070 --> 00:03:18,080 So, we look at marketing, we look at sales and pitching, writing proposals. 74 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:22,850 We get into all kinds of stuff about building a lifestyle business in what, 75 00:03:22,850 --> 00:03:26,550 no doubt we'll talk more about that later, but I also talk about things 76 00:03:26,550 --> 00:03:29,200 like getting work done. 77 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,400 You know, I know it's a stupid thing, but you know, when you're trying to run 78 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,560 your own business, you get so many interruptions, 79 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:37,990 and how do you actually get, get stuff done? 80 00:03:37,990 --> 00:03:42,090 So we cover the whole kind of gamut of things that I've learned 81 00:03:42,090 --> 00:03:46,820 over the years about kind of making a web design business really work. 82 00:03:46,820 --> 00:03:47,890 I mean, it's a whole different set 83 00:03:47,890 --> 00:03:51,472 of concerns when you're working for someone else. 84 00:03:51,472 --> 00:03:51,990 >> Hm. 85 00:03:51,990 --> 00:03:53,280 Versus working for yourself. >> Yeah. 86 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,160 >> When you're working for someone else, there are those responsibilities. 87 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:57,650 There are timelines. 88 00:03:57,650 --> 00:04:00,900 There are people that, that literally are telling you what to do. 89 00:04:00,900 --> 00:04:01,380 >> Yeah. 90 00:04:01,380 --> 00:04:04,850 >> Whereas, you have to rely upon discipline Yeah. 91 00:04:04,850 --> 00:04:06,360 >> And determination. >> Yeah. 92 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,966 >> And also probably a great of guilt >> Mm-hm. 93 00:04:09,966 --> 00:04:12,690 >> And self-doubt when you're working for yourself, right? 94 00:04:12,690 --> 00:04:14,260 >> And also I think there's a lot of people 95 00:04:14,260 --> 00:04:17,005 have a lot of unrealistic expectations when they start out. 96 00:04:17,005 --> 00:04:17,005 >> 97 00:04:17,005 --> 00:04:17,430 Mm-hm. 98 00:04:17,430 --> 00:04:19,910 >> So one of the things people think is, 99 00:04:19,910 --> 00:04:22,330 they sit down and go, well hang on a minute. 100 00:04:22,330 --> 00:04:27,040 I know I'm being charged out at 500, you know, dollars a day or whatever. 101 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:29,190 And I know I'm getting paid considerably less. 102 00:04:29,190 --> 00:04:32,890 If I was working for myself $500 a day times 103 00:04:32,890 --> 00:04:36,100 five days a week times 52 weeks in a year, wow. 104 00:04:36,100 --> 00:04:36,130 >> Mm-hm. 105 00:04:36,130 --> 00:04:38,030 >> I'm gonna be raking it in. 106 00:04:38,030 --> 00:04:41,740 But then of course they forget, holidays, sickness, 107 00:04:41,740 --> 00:04:45,660 admin, dealing with clients, accounting, chasing bad debts. 108 00:04:45,660 --> 00:04:45,850 >> Mm-hm. 109 00:04:45,850 --> 00:04:46,850 >> All of these, kind of, other 110 00:04:46,850 --> 00:04:50,010 things that surround running a web design business. 111 00:04:50,010 --> 00:04:51,420 And, so, often. 112 00:04:51,420 --> 00:04:54,670 People set up as a freelancer, thinking they're gonna, you 113 00:04:54,670 --> 00:04:59,220 know earn more, work less hours, be their own boss. 114 00:04:59,220 --> 00:05:02,430 And instead, what ends up happening is that they under charge themselves. 115 00:05:02,430 --> 00:05:04,880 They have to work really long hours because they take 116 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:06,800 on too much work and end up working a lot 117 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:08,700 harder than they did before. 118 00:05:08,700 --> 00:05:10,780 And on top of which, instead of just having one 119 00:05:10,780 --> 00:05:14,155 awkward boss to deal with, now they've got every single client. 120 00:05:14,155 --> 00:05:16,570 >> Mm-hm >> Who's being awkward and demanding. 121 00:05:16,570 --> 00:05:21,780 So, the reality of going freelancing freelancer, and running your 122 00:05:21,780 --> 00:05:26,040 own web design business is often very different from the expectations. 123 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:28,170 And it's how to get back to that vision. 124 00:05:28,170 --> 00:05:31,640 How to do you get back to a situation where, you're working less. 125 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,520 You're in control of the work that you're doing. 126 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,390 And you're working with great clients you enjoy working with. 127 00:05:37,390 --> 00:05:41,260 >> And this is what the concept of a lifestyle business, is all about? 128 00:05:41,260 --> 00:05:41,700 >> Yes. >> Right? 129 00:05:41,700 --> 00:05:41,940 >> Yes, 130 00:05:41,940 --> 00:05:44,710 >> So, you mentioned that, what is the lifestyle business? 131 00:05:44,710 --> 00:05:46,340 What is, what is that? >> Yeah. 132 00:05:46,340 --> 00:05:48,600 >> Cuz I know it depends for everyone. Right? 133 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:49,080 >> Absolutely. 134 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:52,225 >> It's a different set of, of needs, and, and obligations. 135 00:05:52,225 --> 00:05:53,620 >> Mm-hm. >> But also defining success. 136 00:05:53,620 --> 00:05:56,910 So, what is the lifestyle business? >> To me, there, there are kind of two 137 00:05:56,910 --> 00:06:00,310 fundamental ways of doing business, okay? 138 00:06:00,310 --> 00:06:05,428 There's the, the people that are entrepreneurs that set up a business. 139 00:06:05,428 --> 00:06:08,900 And the idea is they build it up and then they sell it on. 140 00:06:08,900 --> 00:06:11,860 And they go and, and drink piña coladas on the beach somewhere. 141 00:06:11,860 --> 00:06:14,840 >> Mm-hm. And then there are lifestyle businesses. 142 00:06:14,840 --> 00:06:18,860 And these are businesses where you'll create, you go into business for 143 00:06:18,860 --> 00:06:22,430 yourself because you want to achieve certain things in your own life, 144 00:06:22,430 --> 00:06:27,190 that you want to be able to work less maybe earn more money, 145 00:06:27,190 --> 00:06:30,440 be more flexible in your working hours, or whatever it is that you want. 146 00:06:31,494 --> 00:06:36,575 And those are businesses that have to provide a return every day to you. 147 00:06:36,575 --> 00:06:39,900 It's, you're not living for the future you're living for today. 148 00:06:39,900 --> 00:06:42,870 And that's really the kind of business most people that 149 00:06:42,870 --> 00:06:45,775 set up a web design agency or go freelance are after. 150 00:06:45,775 --> 00:06:49,130 Yet, so much of the time we end up living 151 00:06:49,130 --> 00:06:52,120 for the future, oh it will get easier, you know? 152 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:56,050 And once I'm more established, it'll be easier further down the line, you know? 153 00:06:56,050 --> 00:06:57,790 And today I have to put in really long 154 00:06:57,790 --> 00:07:00,330 hours and, and kind of give up my social life. 155 00:07:00,330 --> 00:07:04,620 But it will be better later on, and that's not the way to live, you know, it's the 156 00:07:04,620 --> 00:07:07,010 old adage, isn't always gets this the wrong way 157 00:07:07,010 --> 00:07:10,830 round, of you know we should, shouldn't be living to 158 00:07:10,830 --> 00:07:13,950 work, we should be working to live. >> Mm-hm. 159 00:07:13,950 --> 00:07:14,700 No, the other way around. 160 00:07:14,700 --> 00:07:16,145 See I told you I would get it the wrong way around. 161 00:07:16,145 --> 00:07:19,800 [LAUGH] You know, its this idea that a business should facilitate 162 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:24,390 your lifestyle, rather than your life being dedicated to your business. 163 00:07:24,390 --> 00:07:26,310 That's a lifestyle business. 164 00:07:26,310 --> 00:07:30,550 >> Well I think some people starting out as freelancers are 165 00:07:30,550 --> 00:07:35,940 starting their own business, may feel very nervous, very, very challenged by 166 00:07:35,940 --> 00:07:37,460 the fact that they don't have a lot 167 00:07:37,460 --> 00:07:41,030 of experience, a lot of projects in their portfolio. 168 00:07:41,030 --> 00:07:41,550 >> Yeah. 169 00:07:41,550 --> 00:07:46,270 >> And so the risk, or, or the idea 170 00:07:46,270 --> 00:07:49,510 could be that they should take whatever comes their way. 171 00:07:49,510 --> 00:07:49,600 >> Yes. 172 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,860 >> Just take anything they can, start padding the résumé. 173 00:07:52,860 --> 00:07:53,100 >> Yeah. 174 00:07:53,100 --> 00:07:55,260 >> And then later on, that portfolio will 175 00:07:55,260 --> 00:07:58,290 look even better to the ideal clients they want. 176 00:07:58,290 --> 00:07:58,540 >> Yes. 177 00:07:58,540 --> 00:08:00,670 >> Or, or the type of projects that they wanna get. 178 00:08:00,670 --> 00:08:00,940 Is that 179 00:08:00,940 --> 00:08:01,620 a good strategy? 180 00:08:01,620 --> 00:08:02,880 Should, when you're starting out should you just 181 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:05,490 kind of take whatever you can, or should 182 00:08:05,490 --> 00:08:08,990 you, should you work with family, friends and 183 00:08:08,990 --> 00:08:11,300 family [CROSSTALK] to do those types of things? 184 00:08:11,300 --> 00:08:14,360 What do, what do you recommend for people starting out? 185 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:16,430 >> Yeah, this is a really difficult question. 186 00:08:16,430 --> 00:08:17,040 >> Hm. 187 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,420 >> Because it's the kind of the theoretical 188 00:08:20,420 --> 00:08:22,850 and the idealistic way of working, and then. 189 00:08:22,850 --> 00:08:22,900 Mm-hm. 190 00:08:22,900 --> 00:08:26,130 >> There's the reality of it. The reality is, to begin 191 00:08:26,130 --> 00:08:28,160 with, you take anything. >> Mm-hm. 192 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:30,230 >> You know, you've gotta get money behind you. 193 00:08:30,230 --> 00:08:33,370 And, and a lot of freelancers do what is very sensible, which is that 194 00:08:33,370 --> 00:08:35,620 they build up that portfolio in evenings 195 00:08:35,620 --> 00:08:38,390 and weekends while they're doing the day job. 196 00:08:38,390 --> 00:08:39,980 So that the point comes where they've just 197 00:08:39,980 --> 00:08:41,850 got too much work to deal with the evenings 198 00:08:41,850 --> 00:08:43,565 and weekends and they're kind of forced to go 199 00:08:43,565 --> 00:08:47,240 freelance, and that's probably the best way of working. 200 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:49,752 In terms of working with friends and family, ouch. 201 00:08:49,752 --> 00:08:49,989 Yes. 202 00:08:49,989 --> 00:08:51,250 [LAUGH] >> Never, 203 00:08:51,250 --> 00:08:53,670 never a good thing, but again, when you're 204 00:08:53,670 --> 00:08:56,125 starting out, you know, beggars can't be choosers. 205 00:08:56,125 --> 00:08:56,830 >> Mm-hm. 206 00:08:56,830 --> 00:09:02,760 >> I think where it becomes important to be picky, is in terms 207 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:07,260 of how you present yourself to the world, and how you market yourself. 208 00:09:07,260 --> 00:09:11,810 So although, you know, don't turn away work when you start off. 209 00:09:11,810 --> 00:09:16,290 But equally, don't advertise yourself or promote yourself as being a jack of 210 00:09:16,290 --> 00:09:18,290 all trades and master of none. 211 00:09:18,290 --> 00:09:23,930 You know, decide who you want to target, and, and target that group of people. 212 00:09:23,930 --> 00:09:27,850 You might specialize, as I say, in, in the videos that we cover. 213 00:09:27,850 --> 00:09:32,130 You might specialize in eCommerce sites or WordPress sites. 214 00:09:32,130 --> 00:09:35,720 you might focus in a particular geographical area or in 215 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:41,020 a particular sector like charity websites or higher education websites. 216 00:09:41,020 --> 00:09:44,370 So, there's a difference between what you accept is work that kind 217 00:09:44,370 --> 00:09:48,200 of comes to you and what you actively pursue if that makes sense. 218 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:50,880 So that's kind of how I would divvy it up. 219 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:52,930 >> And does it help to have an 220 00:09:52,930 --> 00:09:55,720 interest, you know, a passion in the subject 221 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:59,140 matter or in the perhaps, the cause behind 222 00:09:59,140 --> 00:10:01,780 some of these clients and projects as well? 223 00:10:01,780 --> 00:10:07,150 I can imagine that it would be much easier to 224 00:10:07,150 --> 00:10:08,620 think about that work. >> Yeah. 225 00:10:08,620 --> 00:10:11,130 >> So, when you think about, oh, I have this project to do, and I have this 226 00:10:11,130 --> 00:10:12,890 client I have to take care of, it must 227 00:10:12,890 --> 00:10:15,660 be much easier to think about doing those projects. 228 00:10:15,660 --> 00:10:15,851 >> Yeah. 229 00:10:15,851 --> 00:10:18,514 When you have a personal stake or a personal interest in them. 230 00:10:18,514 --> 00:10:20,216 >> Absolutely. It makes a huge difference. 231 00:10:20,216 --> 00:10:24,230 I mean, I, one of the big sectors that we work in is the charity sector. 232 00:10:24,230 --> 00:10:27,650 And working on charity work sites is so much more 233 00:10:27,650 --> 00:10:31,810 rewarding than working on, you know, some boring arse government 234 00:10:31,810 --> 00:10:33,005 website, or something. 235 00:10:33,005 --> 00:10:35,900 [LAUGH] You know, because of the subject matter. 236 00:10:35,900 --> 00:10:37,910 Because of what it is you're promoting. 237 00:10:37,910 --> 00:10:44,350 That said, I think you need to cultivate in yourself The ability 238 00:10:44,350 --> 00:10:47,745 to get enthusiastic and compassionate about whatever it is you're working on. 239 00:10:47,745 --> 00:10:48,320 >> Mm-hm. 240 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:51,790 >> Because finding that thing in a project that 241 00:10:51,790 --> 00:10:56,880 sets you on fire is absolutely key because the client 242 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:01,540 will pick up on if you don't care about a project, a client will know that. 243 00:11:01,540 --> 00:11:03,340 And that's when they'll have to start 244 00:11:03,340 --> 00:11:06,540 caring more, which means they start micromanaging, 245 00:11:06,540 --> 00:11:10,530 and they start getting involved in things you don't want them to get involved in. 246 00:11:10,530 --> 00:11:13,430 So find something on the project that makes you passionate. 247 00:11:13,430 --> 00:11:14,960 It might be the subject matter. 248 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:16,800 Or it might be the technology you're applying 249 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:18,470 to it, or you're using a new technique, 250 00:11:18,470 --> 00:11:20,360 or you've seen this really cool design trick 251 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:22,410 that you wanna try out, or whatever it is. 252 00:11:22,410 --> 00:11:25,970 Find something in every project that you can get excited about. 253 00:11:25,970 --> 00:11:30,610 If you're excited about a project, you will carry the client with you. 254 00:11:30,610 --> 00:11:35,170 And, you know, and actually enthusiasm will take you such a long way. 255 00:11:35,170 --> 00:11:38,200 I joked on the videos that I've recorded for you guys 256 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:42,160 about how I have one client where I was getting so 257 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,180 excited and enthusiastic the client said to me how can I 258 00:11:45,180 --> 00:11:47,670 possibly say no to you Paul, it would be like kicking 259 00:11:47,670 --> 00:11:48,890 a puppy. >> Mm-hm. 260 00:11:48,890 --> 00:11:51,310 >> And, you know, that kind of sums it up. 261 00:11:51,310 --> 00:11:54,000 If you're enthusiastic you'll take the client with you. 262 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,480 >> So, on that note I think that 263 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,290 many of us would imagine that the perfect client 264 00:11:59,290 --> 00:12:04,040 would be one that wants to, well, really wants 265 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,020 to pay you a million dollars to do nothing. 266 00:12:06,020 --> 00:12:06,770 >> Oh. >> Really, nothing at all. 267 00:12:06,770 --> 00:12:07,750 >> Yeah, I'd agree with that [LAUGH]. 268 00:12:07,750 --> 00:12:12,590 >> but, you know, in terms of the ideal client and I, and I suppose it, 269 00:12:12,590 --> 00:12:15,250 it also depends on the skills and interests and everything. 270 00:12:15,250 --> 00:12:16,980 But, you know, what is the perfect client? 271 00:12:16,980 --> 00:12:17,800 What is, what is. >> Yeah. 272 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:18,990 >> What is a great client? 273 00:12:18,990 --> 00:12:23,350 What makes them up and, and for people that, maybe people 274 00:12:23,350 --> 00:12:26,390 that are watching this, that are thinking about contracting with others. 275 00:12:26,390 --> 00:12:27,120 >> Yeah. 276 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:29,140 How can they be a better client. >> Hm. 277 00:12:29,140 --> 00:12:30,010 >> For a project? 278 00:12:30,010 --> 00:12:32,310 >> That's a really, there's kinda two questions there. 279 00:12:32,310 --> 00:12:32,980 >> Sure. >> You're right. 280 00:12:32,980 --> 00:12:35,600 The perfect, the perfect client is definitely one that 281 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:37,810 pays you a million dollars and, and doesn't require 282 00:12:37,810 --> 00:12:38,570 anything back. >> Sure. 283 00:12:38,570 --> 00:12:39,890 >> I think we're all in agreement on that. 284 00:12:39,890 --> 00:12:40,130 >> Sure. 285 00:12:40,130 --> 00:12:43,490 >> But, being a little bit more realistic about it. 286 00:12:43,490 --> 00:12:48,730 For me, it's, it's all about engagement and relationship. 287 00:12:48,730 --> 00:12:49,180 Okay? 288 00:12:49,180 --> 00:12:53,970 So, if you have a client that's willing to engage and get stuck in, roll 289 00:12:53,970 --> 00:12:58,500 up their sleeves and get stuck into the process, that goes such a long way. 290 00:12:58,500 --> 00:13:02,350 The clients that just want you to go away and produce a website. 291 00:13:02,350 --> 00:13:02,800 Actually, 292 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:05,110 you would think that they would be the best clients. 293 00:13:05,110 --> 00:13:07,740 Because they, you know, they're, they're hands 294 00:13:07,740 --> 00:13:10,170 off and they're letting you do your thing. 295 00:13:10,170 --> 00:13:12,420 But, actually, what normally happens, is you produce a 296 00:13:12,420 --> 00:13:14,400 website and then they complain and moan about it. 297 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,210 So, you really want a client that kind of engages from the very beginning. 298 00:13:17,210 --> 00:13:17,970 >> Mm-hm. 299 00:13:17,970 --> 00:13:20,530 The other thing that you need is a client where 300 00:13:20,530 --> 00:13:24,060 there is a really good rapport between you and that client. 301 00:13:24,060 --> 00:13:24,655 All right? 302 00:13:24,655 --> 00:13:27,130 Their kind of people that you get on with personally. 303 00:13:27,130 --> 00:13:28,180 And the reason 304 00:13:28,180 --> 00:13:30,930 that's so important is because, if you're, if you 305 00:13:30,930 --> 00:13:34,290 actually build a relationship with your supplier, or your client, 306 00:13:34,290 --> 00:13:36,310 depending on which side of the fence you're on Then, 307 00:13:36,310 --> 00:13:39,490 it, it, it makes everything go much, so much smoother. 308 00:13:39,490 --> 00:13:42,900 You tend to be much more laid back about 309 00:13:42,900 --> 00:13:45,600 problems and challenges, which are never to be come up. 310 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:49,130 You recognize that this person is trying really hard on your behalf, 311 00:13:49,130 --> 00:13:53,480 and so it kind of shifts the relationship and makes things go 312 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:54,870 much smoother. 313 00:13:54,870 --> 00:13:58,290 But also, as a, as a web designer if you've 314 00:13:58,290 --> 00:14:01,070 got a client which you just get on with, you 315 00:14:01,070 --> 00:14:04,555 feel more relaxed and willing to challenge them and say, 316 00:14:04,555 --> 00:14:06,560 well, I don't thing that necessary is the best way. 317 00:14:06,560 --> 00:14:08,820 >> Mm-hm. >> Perhaps we could try this instead. 318 00:14:08,820 --> 00:14:11,170 And that's where things really spark. 319 00:14:11,170 --> 00:14:13,460 But it works the other way around as well, that if you 320 00:14:13,460 --> 00:14:17,470 respect your client, then you're willing to listen to their ideas and opinions. 321 00:14:17,470 --> 00:14:18,860 >> Mm-hm. >> And you don't have that stroppy 322 00:14:18,860 --> 00:14:21,800 moment that we all have as designers, going, I'm the designer! 323 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:22,565 Listen to me! 324 00:14:22,565 --> 00:14:23,020 >> [LAUGH] 325 00:14:23,020 --> 00:14:25,390 >> You know, it's much more of a kind of two-way relationship. 326 00:14:25,390 --> 00:14:27,740 I mean, the best client I ever, ever 327 00:14:27,740 --> 00:14:31,510 worked with was for a large e-commerce site. 328 00:14:31,510 --> 00:14:36,740 And he, he would I would always be pushing him and challenging him. 329 00:14:36,740 --> 00:14:38,090 And he would push me back. 330 00:14:38,090 --> 00:14:39,865 And he called me a, a, a pinko 331 00:14:39,865 --> 00:14:43,074 communist because I always [LAUGH] put the user first. 332 00:14:43,074 --> 00:14:44,005 And I called him a mon, 333 00:14:44,005 --> 00:14:45,573 money grabbing capitalist cuz he just 334 00:14:45,573 --> 00:14:47,730 wanted to extract money [LAUGH] from people. 335 00:14:47,730 --> 00:14:50,020 And that was the kind of relationship we had, and it was great. 336 00:14:50,020 --> 00:14:51,409 And it worked really well. 337 00:14:51,409 --> 00:14:54,392 So, it's those, and he was really engaged as well. 338 00:14:54,392 --> 00:14:56,968 So, it's those two factors, being gay, get a client 339 00:14:56,968 --> 00:14:59,670 that's engaged, and also get somebody you get on with. 340 00:14:59,670 --> 00:15:01,270 That's what you're really looking for. 341 00:15:01,270 --> 00:15:05,420 And, here's the important thing: If you go through that initial 342 00:15:05,420 --> 00:15:08,924 proposal stage, and you're going in the back of your head, 343 00:15:08,924 --> 00:15:13,940 oh, oh I'm not sure about this, be brave. Be brave and walk away. 344 00:15:13,940 --> 00:15:16,390 And that's very difficult at the beginning of a project. 345 00:15:16,390 --> 00:15:21,150 You have projects, and you're trying to Keep yourself busy, but it's so important. 346 00:15:21,150 --> 00:15:24,350 If those things aren't there, it'll be a bad 347 00:15:24,350 --> 00:15:26,315 project and you're not gonna make money out of it. 348 00:15:26,315 --> 00:15:26,680 >> Mm-hm. 349 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:28,980 And I think, you know, those, those two characters 350 00:15:28,980 --> 00:15:31,350 that you talked about probably would make a good sitcom. 351 00:15:31,350 --> 00:15:31,740 >> Yeah. 352 00:15:31,740 --> 00:15:32,470 >> Really good half-hour comedy. 353 00:15:32,470 --> 00:15:34,160 >> Yeah, absolutely. >> And the web designer and 354 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:35,595 the clients. >> Yeah, yeah. 355 00:15:35,595 --> 00:15:35,660 >> [LAUGH] 356 00:15:35,660 --> 00:15:36,760 >> Well I was thinking about there, 357 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,600 the pinko communist and the capitalist money grabber. 358 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:39,930 >> That's them. 359 00:15:39,930 --> 00:15:40,928 >> That would, yeah. Perfect. 360 00:15:40,928 --> 00:15:46,220 [LAUGH] So, for, for designers and developers working 361 00:15:46,220 --> 00:15:51,190 in the industry now you know, there so very busy with client work, and 362 00:15:51,190 --> 00:15:53,720 maybe they even have a day job, but they have all 363 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:57,700 these other obligations as well, family and everything else going on. 364 00:15:57,700 --> 00:15:59,610 It's extremely busy. >> Yeah. 365 00:15:59,610 --> 00:16:01,000 >> To. 366 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:05,030 Its extremely busy and its extremely difficult at times to stay current. 367 00:16:05,030 --> 00:16:05,290 >> Yes. 368 00:16:05,290 --> 00:16:06,910 >> You know, new things come out all the time, new 369 00:16:06,910 --> 00:16:11,000 versions of, of software, and updates to language, and, and new apps. 370 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:13,855 How do, I mean, how do you stay current? 371 00:16:13,855 --> 00:16:14,000 >> [LAUGH] 372 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:15,110 >> You know, how do, how do you stay current? 373 00:16:15,110 --> 00:16:18,340 How does the team at Headscape stay current and, you know, 374 00:16:18,340 --> 00:16:22,080 what advice can you offer for designers and developers out there? 375 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:25,490 To be honest, this, this whole thing 376 00:16:25,490 --> 00:16:31,895 of we're all so busy, okay? We're as busy as we allow ourselves to be. 377 00:16:31,895 --> 00:16:32,500 >> Mm-hm. >> Right? 378 00:16:32,500 --> 00:16:36,050 Work will expand to fill the space that you give it. 379 00:16:36,050 --> 00:16:40,300 I'm a great believer in working smarter rather than longer. 380 00:16:40,300 --> 00:16:42,590 So, there are all kinds of techniques that we talk 381 00:16:42,590 --> 00:16:45,530 about in the, in the videos about how to do that. 382 00:16:45,530 --> 00:16:50,800 But I think what I would really encourage is you have to set aside time. 383 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,840 Whether you think you've got that time or not, you have to set 384 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,585 aside time to do research, to keep 385 00:16:56,585 --> 00:16:58,850 up-to-date, to, to keep engaged with things. 386 00:17:00,570 --> 00:17:05,880 And ring fence that, and refuse to compromise over that time. 387 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,620 And you will find you'll get the work done. 388 00:17:08,620 --> 00:17:10,720 You will get the work done within the 389 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,015 available time that you give it, you give it. 390 00:17:13,015 --> 00:17:14,500 >> Mm-hm. >> It's amazing. 391 00:17:14,500 --> 00:17:15,990 And it, it feels like 392 00:17:15,990 --> 00:17:18,160 it makes no sense but it works. 393 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,360 So that's one part of it, is ring fencing time. 394 00:17:21,360 --> 00:17:28,130 I think it, it's also about, not kind of picking and choosing where you learn from. 395 00:17:28,130 --> 00:17:28,945 Okay. 396 00:17:28,945 --> 00:17:32,660 That the internet is full with amazing content okay, 397 00:17:32,660 --> 00:17:34,720 and you can end up looking in so many different 398 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,220 places that you're actually seeing a lot of the 399 00:17:37,220 --> 00:17:40,390 same thing again, and again, and again, in various forms. 400 00:17:40,390 --> 00:17:41,140 So I think 401 00:17:41,140 --> 00:17:45,300 narrow it down and pick a small number of sources that you work from. 402 00:17:45,300 --> 00:17:47,920 You know, Treehouse might be one example but equally it could 403 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,740 be you know, certain RSS feeds, or certain people that you read. 404 00:17:51,740 --> 00:17:53,830 But limit the number of sources you go to. 405 00:17:53,830 --> 00:17:57,090 Find certain individuals that are trustworthy sources, and rely on 406 00:17:57,090 --> 00:18:00,020 them to do a lot of the filtering for you. 407 00:18:00,020 --> 00:18:02,290 So that's another thing that you can do. 408 00:18:02,290 --> 00:18:06,140 So there are lots essentially of, of kind of managing your time. 409 00:18:06,140 --> 00:18:09,740 Managing the sources that you're looking at in 410 00:18:09,740 --> 00:18:13,040 order to not get too overwhelmed by it all. 411 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:14,706 >> Battlestar Galactica. 412 00:18:14,706 --> 00:18:15,544 >> [LAUGH] Yeah? 413 00:18:15,544 --> 00:18:19,360 >> Or Doctor Who? Oh, that's really cruel! 414 00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:21,020 >> I didn't say they were gonna be easy questions. 415 00:18:22,450 --> 00:18:23,795 >> You see now, that's really unfair. 416 00:18:23,795 --> 00:18:24,300 >> Mm-hm. 417 00:18:24,300 --> 00:18:25,370 >> I'll tell you why it's unfair. 418 00:18:25,370 --> 00:18:28,050 Cuz Battlestar Galactica, is without a bit of doubt, 419 00:18:28,050 --> 00:18:30,920 the best piece of sci-fi television that's ever been made. 420 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:34,910 Right, so, it, on that basis, it has to win. 421 00:18:34,910 --> 00:18:41,125 But in terms of emotional attachment as a British guy. 422 00:18:41,125 --> 00:18:45,750 >> [LAUGH] That grew up, you know, teatimes on Saturday, sitting 423 00:18:45,750 --> 00:18:49,700 down with my parents, watching Doctor Who, hiding behind the sofa. 424 00:18:49,700 --> 00:18:51,065 Cuz I really did do that. 425 00:18:51,065 --> 00:18:54,020 >> Mm-hm. >> Being terrified of it. 426 00:18:54,020 --> 00:18:56,150 And then as an adult. 427 00:18:56,150 --> 00:18:59,660 Where it's been rebooted and restarted and having my son 428 00:18:59,660 --> 00:19:02,170 and connecting with him it's got to be Doctor Who. 429 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,352 So, I'm sorry, but I'm gonna go Doctor Who. 430 00:19:05,352 --> 00:19:07,187 >> [LAUGH] Okay. 431 00:19:07,187 --> 00:19:08,860 I was gonna say you were going to cop out in the end there. 432 00:19:08,860 --> 00:19:09,767 You were gonna say, no both of' em. 433 00:19:09,767 --> 00:19:10,280 >> No no. 434 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:14,075 I've got, I've got to follow my heart, and that's what I've got to do. 435 00:19:14,075 --> 00:19:15,870 >> Okay, Star Trek or Star Wars. 436 00:19:15,870 --> 00:19:17,780 >> Oh, Star Wars, that's easy. >> Okay, all right. 437 00:19:20,360 --> 00:19:22,260 >> You're making up questions as you go along, now, aren't you? 438 00:19:22,260 --> 00:19:22,560 I can tell. 439 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,340 >> No, this is, this, for the middle part, the sci fi section. 440 00:19:25,340 --> 00:19:27,270 >> Oh the sci fi section of the show. >> You didn't see that part. 441 00:19:27,270 --> 00:19:30,940 >> I didn't know that was in it. >> Last question of the sci-fi part. 442 00:19:30,940 --> 00:19:32,360 >> Yeah. >> The doctor. 443 00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:35,136 >> Yeah. >> Or, Sherlock Holmes. 444 00:19:35,136 --> 00:19:36,077 >> Whoa. 445 00:19:36,077 --> 00:19:38,880 >> Well, Sherlock Holmes isn't sci-fi. >> Yeah, but it's still fantasy. 446 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:39,540 >> So that's fine. 447 00:19:39,540 --> 00:19:42,170 Are, they're pretty much one and the same thing these days, aren't there? 448 00:19:42,170 --> 00:19:42,490 >> Really? 449 00:19:42,490 --> 00:19:44,010 >> I mean, you got Steven Moffat 450 00:19:44,010 --> 00:19:45,880 writing Doctor Who, you've got Steven Moffat 451 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:47,400 writing Sherlock. So there you go. 452 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:48,920 It's the same character basically. 453 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:50,530 >> Okay. >> It's gotta be Doctor Who. 454 00:19:50,530 --> 00:19:51,240 >> That's one answer. 455 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:53,240 >> Cuz he's a, he's a time traveling alien. 456 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,590 I mean, that's gotta be cooler than Sherlock Holmes. 457 00:19:55,590 --> 00:19:55,970 >> Okay. 458 00:19:55,970 --> 00:19:57,900 Fair enough. >> And also I'm good wholesome person. 459 00:19:57,900 --> 00:20:00,770 I mean, you know, Sherlock Holmes, he's a drug addict. 460 00:20:00,770 --> 00:20:03,110 How could I possibly support that? 461 00:20:03,110 --> 00:20:05,180 >> Okay, after the show you can tell me what you really think. 462 00:20:05,180 --> 00:20:06,160 >> Yeah I'll tell you the truth then, later. 463 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:06,870 >> Okay, all right. 464 00:20:06,870 --> 00:20:07,830 Now, back to the program. 465 00:20:07,830 --> 00:20:09,070 >> So are we gonna talk about web design again? 466 00:20:09,070 --> 00:20:10,085 >> Back to the program. 467 00:20:10,085 --> 00:20:11,040 >> [LAUGH] >> When Headscape and other design 468 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,860 agencies are looking for new talent >> Yes. 469 00:20:13,860 --> 00:20:18,270 >> Obviously there are certain positions where you have specific needs. 470 00:20:18,270 --> 00:20:18,360 >> Yeah. 471 00:20:18,360 --> 00:20:20,808 >> And other times, you're just, you're looking for someone great. 472 00:20:20,808 --> 00:20:21,376 >> Yeah. 473 00:20:21,376 --> 00:20:24,940 >> Now, hat is it you're looking for in new 474 00:20:24,940 --> 00:20:27,690 talent for someone that wants to come work for you. 475 00:20:27,690 --> 00:20:33,450 Is it, do you have to have or is there work experience versus college diploma? 476 00:20:33,450 --> 00:20:36,280 >> Right, yeah. >> What is it, exactly? 477 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,060 Okay, to some extent it depends on who you're hiring, right? 478 00:20:39,060 --> 00:20:41,840 I'll be honest, designer I don't give a monkeys 479 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:44,920 what their education is, it's all about their portfolio, okay? 480 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,990 If they've got great portfolio work then I'm sold. 481 00:20:47,990 --> 00:20:50,490 With developers, it's a little bit more 482 00:20:50,490 --> 00:20:54,930 complicated because having a having a university 483 00:20:54,930 --> 00:20:58,920 education in Computer Science provides certain analytical 484 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,670 skills that are really useful for a developer. 485 00:21:01,670 --> 00:21:03,050 But, put it like this. 486 00:21:03,050 --> 00:21:05,950 I'm not gonna ever rate, you know, to bits 487 00:21:05,950 --> 00:21:11,180 of paper that highly, compared to, to real world experience. 488 00:21:11,180 --> 00:21:14,390 And I recognize you get into this Catch 22 489 00:21:14,390 --> 00:21:15,910 of how do you kind of start in your career. 490 00:21:15,910 --> 00:21:18,290 Because everybody wants experience, and you don't have experience. 491 00:21:18,290 --> 00:21:22,030 So we're very careful not to judge too heavily on experience. 492 00:21:22,030 --> 00:21:25,670 Will do, if you haven't got a lot of experience, we'll set you a test to do. 493 00:21:25,670 --> 00:21:26,770 We'll give you a coding 494 00:21:26,770 --> 00:21:30,070 challenge and if you can do that, then perhaps that answers our questions. 495 00:21:30,070 --> 00:21:34,520 But to re, be honest, really skills, skills are the easy bit. 496 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:35,020 Right? 497 00:21:36,120 --> 00:21:39,310 I can teach anybody. Well, you can teach anybody. 498 00:21:39,310 --> 00:21:40,010 That's what you do. 499 00:21:40,010 --> 00:21:40,400 >> Sure. 500 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,160 >> You can teach anybody to, to learn how 501 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,900 to code pretty much anything or to do design. 502 00:21:44,900 --> 00:21:46,020 That's easy. 503 00:21:46,020 --> 00:21:46,460 Right? 504 00:21:46,460 --> 00:21:49,280 You know, I can hire someone, I can give them 505 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,070 a Treehouse account, off they go and they can learn it. 506 00:21:52,070 --> 00:21:56,440 What really matters are finding the people 507 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,030 with the right personality and right attitude. 508 00:22:00,030 --> 00:22:04,440 So every cult, every company has its own culture. 509 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:06,900 And you need to find people that fit in with 510 00:22:06,900 --> 00:22:10,580 that culture, that kind of have the same outlook on life. 511 00:22:10,580 --> 00:22:14,010 Not the same types of people, you don't want everybody to be 512 00:22:14,010 --> 00:22:17,480 a clone of one another, but kind of have the same attitude 513 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,995 towards work and the same attitude towards business and that kind of stuff. 514 00:22:20,995 --> 00:22:22,030 >> Mm-hm. 515 00:22:22,030 --> 00:22:23,410 >> So that's one aspect. 516 00:22:23,410 --> 00:22:27,400 Then you need people that have real tinkerers, for want of a better word. 517 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,800 People that are obsessed with playing with the web, right? 518 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,490 Because the web changes so rapidly. 519 00:22:33,490 --> 00:22:37,850 You know, you can have a university degree in whatever you 520 00:22:37,850 --> 00:22:41,380 want but that's gonna be irrelevant in two three years time. 521 00:22:41,380 --> 00:22:42,493 What matters is somebody 522 00:22:42,493 --> 00:22:43,830 that's a lifelong learner. 523 00:22:44,970 --> 00:22:46,540 There are a lot of different ways of learning. 524 00:22:46,540 --> 00:22:48,400 But, the, the, the, the way that I 525 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,700 love the most are people that experiment and play. 526 00:22:51,700 --> 00:22:56,705 You know I love it when our designers and developers you know, create some 527 00:22:56,705 --> 00:22:59,870 new-lit way of doing things, and they show it to me, and it's like, right! 528 00:22:59,870 --> 00:23:01,250 We're gonna use that from now on. >> Mm-hm. 529 00:23:01,250 --> 00:23:02,770 >> I had a classic example recently. 530 00:23:02,770 --> 00:23:05,470 One of the challenges we have at Headscape, as a lot 531 00:23:05,470 --> 00:23:08,450 of web design agencies do, is how to show a client 532 00:23:08,450 --> 00:23:12,180 responsiveness, you know, when you're at the kind of design stage. 533 00:23:12,180 --> 00:23:14,599 And our designer had, you know, been working 534 00:23:14,599 --> 00:23:16,780 till 3, 4 in the morning, just playing 535 00:23:16,780 --> 00:23:19,610 with some clever app that, you know, allowed 536 00:23:19,610 --> 00:23:23,270 design to reformat itself to show to clients. 537 00:23:23,270 --> 00:23:26,320 And, you know, he wasn't gettin' paid to do that. 538 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:27,310 But he did it anyway. 539 00:23:27,310 --> 00:23:32,310 And it's that kind of obsessive compulsive behavior that I love, you know. 540 00:23:32,310 --> 00:23:33,500 But it's not about the 541 00:23:33,500 --> 00:23:34,550 working the long hours. 542 00:23:34,550 --> 00:23:36,290 It's about the playing and the experimenting. 543 00:23:36,290 --> 00:23:39,460 >> Sure. So, and this is the last question. 544 00:23:39,460 --> 00:23:40,672 >> Okay. 545 00:23:40,672 --> 00:23:43,290 So, I've gotta be, is it a really good question? 546 00:23:43,290 --> 00:23:45,200 >> It's, no. Probably the worst one. 547 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:46,370 >> It's gotta be the best question [CROSSTALK] 548 00:23:46,370 --> 00:23:47,760 >> I left for last, it's the worst one. 549 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:49,030 >> The, the, aw. >> Yeah. 550 00:23:49,030 --> 00:23:52,845 I'll make it best answer, then. >> What is the web design [INAUDIBLE]? 551 00:23:52,845 --> 00:23:56,361 >> [LAUGH] That web thing, what is it? 552 00:23:56,361 --> 00:23:58,988 >> [LAUGH] So what is it about design that you're 553 00:23:58,988 --> 00:24:01,757 truly passionate about, I mean what is, what 554 00:24:01,757 --> 00:24:04,100 is the thing that's, drives you now to 555 00:24:04,100 --> 00:24:06,727 work on client projects and will continue to 556 00:24:06,727 --> 00:24:09,433 drive you to work on projects in the future? 557 00:24:09,433 --> 00:24:11,640 Now that's making the assumption I still am passionate. 558 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,280 Perhaps I'm just jaded and twisted and bitter. 559 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:15,020 >> Could be. 560 00:24:15,020 --> 00:24:17,680 >> So that, that would be a real high to end the interview on. 561 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:18,725 >> Sure. >> Luckily I'm not. 562 00:24:18,725 --> 00:24:21,790 [LAUGH] Luckily I'm still enthusiastic. 563 00:24:21,790 --> 00:24:22,680 What is it about design? 564 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:24,430 I mean I'm not a hands on designer anymore. 565 00:24:24,430 --> 00:24:25,660 I think that's an important thing to say. 566 00:24:25,660 --> 00:24:28,950 I, I work with clients on a consultative basis. 567 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:34,060 I think what I love about, my job, and I've 568 00:24:34,060 --> 00:24:39,300 always loved is, what we just talked about, is that it's 569 00:24:39,300 --> 00:24:43,010 forever changing, there's always something new, there's always a new technique, 570 00:24:43,010 --> 00:24:47,640 there's always something new to explore and to to challenge you. 571 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:49,630 And every client project 572 00:24:49,630 --> 00:24:53,420 I get in, there's got some nuance to it that challenges me. 573 00:24:53,420 --> 00:24:57,990 You know, it's got a, a, that ecommerce site I mentioned earlier. 574 00:24:57,990 --> 00:25:01,180 Their average user was in their 80s. 575 00:25:01,180 --> 00:25:03,770 80 years old, that was the average, you know, user. 576 00:25:03,770 --> 00:25:06,150 And so, that had an amazing target 577 00:25:06,150 --> 00:25:08,480 audience to work with, that created brilliant challenges. 578 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:10,470 Other times it's, there's some real, kind 579 00:25:10,470 --> 00:25:14,000 of complexity and the technology that needs solving. 580 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:15,030 Or a design 581 00:25:15,030 --> 00:25:17,550 challenge that I've never encountered before. 582 00:25:17,550 --> 00:25:23,270 Even after nearly 20 years in web design, every project has got something new to it. 583 00:25:23,270 --> 00:25:25,749 Whether it be some horrible politics within 584 00:25:25,749 --> 00:25:28,680 the organization that I have to work around. 585 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:32,140 You know, it's that challenge that keeps me going. 586 00:25:32,140 --> 00:25:35,410 And as soon as, as soon as the web becomes an established 587 00:25:35,410 --> 00:25:38,770 industry, like I don't know, engineering or architecture, I'm out of here. 588 00:25:38,770 --> 00:25:38,975 You know? 589 00:25:38,975 --> 00:25:40,110 >> [LAUGH] >> That, I've lost 590 00:25:40,110 --> 00:25:43,030 interest then. >> Of to sip drinks on the beach. 591 00:25:43,030 --> 00:25:43,890 >> Yes. 592 00:25:43,890 --> 00:25:46,244 Although because I've built a lifestyle business rather 593 00:25:46,244 --> 00:25:48,505 than one with an exit strategy, I'm totally stuffed. 594 00:25:48,505 --> 00:25:51,460 [LAUGH] I haven't planned a business like that. 595 00:25:51,460 --> 00:25:53,135 But, you know, it's never too late to start. 596 00:25:53,135 --> 00:25:53,390 [LAUGH] 597 00:25:53,390 --> 00:25:56,310 >> Well, thanks for joining us, and, and for our members 598 00:25:56,310 --> 00:25:59,140 that want to continue to follow you, where can they find you? 599 00:25:59,140 --> 00:26:00,140 At the podcast, yes? 600 00:26:00,140 --> 00:26:04,800 >> Yeah, I do a web design podcast at boagworld.com. 601 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:05,290 But I also 602 00:26:05,290 --> 00:26:07,400 put out loads of blog posts as well. >> Mm-hm. 603 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,130 >> But, also, seriously, check out the stuff that I've done 604 00:26:10,130 --> 00:26:12,900 at Treehouse as well, because I've, I've really enjoyed doing it. 605 00:26:12,900 --> 00:26:15,230 It's been a brilliant couple of days doing that, 606 00:26:15,230 --> 00:26:17,720 and hopefully there's some useful stuff in there, as well. 607 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:18,420 >> Absolutely. 608 00:26:18,420 --> 00:26:20,604 Thank you so much for joining us, and thank you for 609 00:26:20,604 --> 00:26:23,795 watching this episode of Treehouse Friends, we'll see you next time. 610 00:26:23,795 --> 00:26:30,100 [MUSIC].