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How to Get Your First Job in Tech Q&A with Antonella Solomon, Grant Ovsepyan, Jeremy Smith, and Ryan Carson
60:00 with TreehouseJoin Antonella Solomon, Grant Ovsepyan, Jeremy Smith, and Ryan Carson as they talk about how to Get Your First Job in Tech.
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Welcome, everybody [SOUND].
0:04
We are back for another session today.
0:07
Can I just get a quick thumbs up from my
amazing guests that you can hear me okay.
0:12
All right, good.
0:17
All right.
Well, I'm gonna welcome everybody.
0:18
Really excited to do
a bonus session today.
0:20
There was so much demand for
0:23
another session on this topic that
we put together, this bonus session.
0:25
Welcome to How to Get a Job Without
a Computer Science Degree.
0:30
First of all,
please welcome Antonella Solomon.
0:36
Antonella is the Engineering Manager
at Treehouse.
0:39
She was born and
raised in Detroit, Michigan, and
0:41
graduated from Michigan State University
with a degree in Merchandise Management.
0:45
After graduating from college,
she entered the insurance industry and
0:50
soon after gained admittance into
an entrepreneurship incubator.
0:55
Which led to the creation of
a startup focused on helping
0:59
prospective insurance agents pass
their state licensing exams.
1:03
From this experience, she learned
the value of understanding technology.
1:08
And the importance of having
access to platforms and
1:12
resources to help people pursue
careers in the tech industry.
1:15
Antonella has helped hundreds of people in
her community get new careers in tech and
1:19
she is passionate about
making a difference.
1:24
Antonella, we're so glad you're here.
1:27
>> Thank you, happy to be here.
1:30
>> Next up we have Jeremy Smith.
1:31
Jeremy's experience is as a front end web
developer with over 10 years of sales and
1:33
marketing experience gives him a unique
vantage point in today's digital market.
1:38
He originally studied the front end
web development track at Treehouse.
1:44
Not only does he understand the workflow
of lead generation and conversion.
1:49
He can build out the emails,
landing pages and
1:54
web applications to support
marketing campaigns,
1:56
often finding himself as a liaison
between the product and marketing teams.
2:00
Because Jeremy can speak both languages.
2:04
Jeremy, it's good to have you here.
2:08
>> Good to be here.
2:10
>> Finally,
please welcome Grant Bovesbien.
2:14
Grant recently graduated from
the Treehouse PHP tech degree program and
2:18
has been given the opportunity to finally
realize his lifelong dream of becoming
2:22
a web engineer.
2:27
He utilises his past experience in being
a successful retail store manager to bring
2:28
a fresh take on customer service oriented
approach to development and team building.
2:33
He enjoys the challenges presented.
2:40
As an engineer, he's always excited
to learn new coding techniques.
2:42
Particularly in the realms of PHP,
Python and TypeScript.
2:46
Grant, thanks for joining us again today.
2:50
>> Glad to be back.
2:52
>> Good to have you here.
2:53
So, it's really great
to have you all here.
2:54
What we're gonna do is
answer a ton of questions.
2:59
The audience really wants
to hear how you did it.
3:02
How you went from no
experience to that first job.
3:07
Especially without a computer science
degree, essentially being self taught.
3:12
So, always focus your
answers on that lens, please.
3:17
What I'm gonna do is ask a question and if
you wanna answer just stick up your hands,
3:22
and then I'll call on you.
3:26
And I'll make sure to give
everybody an opportunity.
3:28
And if you're not speaking,
3:31
try to mute yourself just to
minimize any background sound.
3:33
So, let's get started.
3:36
Okay, so first of all,
a question from Samuel.
3:39
How do you know when you are ready for
a job as a student developer?
3:43
Jeremy?
3:50
>> Well, the short answer is
you don't really know, right?
3:50
I mean, I've been doing this for
going on eight years professionally,
3:56
and I still feel like I'm a newbie.
4:01
I still find myself doing all of
the newbie things, doing research.
4:04
Coming in early, staying awake,
so you don't know but
4:07
don't let that stop you
from taking the first step.
4:12
>> Anyone else want to add to that?
4:16
Antonella?
4:19
>> Yeah, I actually agree with Jeremy,
I think it's really important for
4:21
you to just put yourself out there.
4:24
Take a chance and
really see what comes of it.
4:26
I think the most important thing
is even if you don't feel ready,
4:29
definitely try to get some interviews
scheduled and ask for feedback.
4:33
I think feedback is always the best
thing that'll help you progress as you
4:37
continue on.
4:42
>> Answer.
4:42
Grant, you want to answer that too?
4:44
>> Sure.
4:47
So, I mean, that was my response.
4:48
I kept studying and studying,
couldn't figure out when I would be ready.
4:50
So I just started applying and let the
hiring managers let me know if I'm ready.
4:53
Cuz they would give me that feedback.
4:57
And if I didn't pass,
then I knew I had something else to learn.
4:59
And then hopefully eventually I would do
that enough times where I'd be ready.
5:01
>> I imagine people are terrified
of just being embarrassed, right?
5:06
So if they do that first application and
that process is really bad.
5:10
Is there a small step you can
take before you apply, just so
5:16
that feels a little safer?
5:21
Just so it's less scary?
5:23
Grant?
5:25
>> So I did a lot of research, I would
look up a tech interview questions.
5:28
I found a website that had 100 questions
that usually gets asked in the tech
5:34
interview.
5:37
I'd go through those,
5:37
I would look at what would be a small
code example that you would get.
5:39
I would ask other people what kind of
experience or what kind of questions they
5:44
would go through interview,
to better prepare myself.
5:47
Now, there's all sorts of
variables that you can't plan for.
5:50
But having that little bit of a base
knowledge helped me have the confidence to
5:54
go, okay,
I might be able to answer some of them.
5:57
And go from there.
5:59
>> Antonella?
6:02
>> The advice I would give is
to do some code challenges.
6:05
So, there are platforms out there.
6:09
Some examples are like Hacker Rank,
Codewars, LeetCode,
6:11
that will give you samples of
what types of questions and
6:16
code challenges they'll
actually give to you.
6:20
So to give you a chance to run through.
6:23
And some of those platforms actually
can help you get jobs if you
6:25
accumulate a certain amount of points,
so something too, definitely.
6:30
>> Awesome, thank you.
6:35
I think what all
the presenters are saying and
6:36
I would echo is that you're
never gonna feel ready.
6:39
It's always gonna be scary and
just know you're not alone in that.
6:43
And also if the first
interview goes terribly,
6:47
there are many more and it's okay.
6:51
So, let's go on to another question.
6:54
All right.
6:57
A question from Alexandra, I'm wondering
how long does a resume usually need to be?
6:58
I've heard that it should
not be longer than one page.
7:05
But as we talked about
describing projects,
7:07
it might seem that it should be longer.
7:10
Who would like to start
us off on this one.
7:13
Grant?
7:16
>> So, I've had that recommendation too.
7:18
I worked hard to get my
resume down to a page,
7:20
just because going through and
hiring a whole bunch
7:24
of people in my past,
it's a lot to read a long resume.
7:30
Something you need to work
on is quick snapshot, right?
7:35
Get it down to what's the highlights, what
do I need to know in five to ten seconds
7:38
about you that's going to hook me in.
7:43
It's your fishing line,
not the actual full package.
7:46
So that's why you need to work on your
resume to get it to as succinct, and
7:50
as to the point, and
as attention-getting as you can.
7:55
And then try to keep it to page.
7:58
If you have to go over a page,
sometimes that's okay.
8:00
But do your best, just do the highlights,
and what can get people's attention.
8:03
>> Good answer.
8:08
Jeremy?
8:08
>> When I was crafting my resume,
I actually had variations of my resume.
8:12
I would do research on
the company first and
8:16
then tailor my resume to fit that niche.
8:20
Because I was applying for
both products positions,
8:24
but also jobs within
other functions as well.
8:29
So, that's how I would modify
my resume based on that.
8:33
>> I wanna answer or ask a quick question
that already came in from the audience.
8:42
Molly had a great question and they said,
should you even, at all summarise?
8:46
I don't think I can find it quickly.
8:53
Should I even apply to a job that says
a computer science degree is required if I
8:56
don't have it?
9:01
Grant, I saw your hand first.
9:05
>> So I covered that in my presentation.
9:09
But back to it was look at what
the job in the business is.
9:11
So, some of those job postings are just a
copy and paste, they have that by default.
9:15
But look at what you need to do.
9:20
Do you need to have the knowledge,
are you going to be doing AI and
9:22
machine learning and things like that?
9:26
Then you might need
a computer science degree.
9:29
If you're going to be doing
front end web development or
9:31
even basic back end web development,
you probably don't need that degree.
9:34
You can do it in lieu of
recommendations or experience or
9:37
code samples that show that you
are capable without that degree.
9:41
>> Your hand is up, too.
9:46
>> You know me.
I see these candidates out on all
9:49
of the jobs are equivalent, right?
9:52
And then I make my own definition of
what a equivalence, like a technical.
9:56
And when I get into the interview,
that's when I have to sell myself.
10:02
And I let everybody know when I'm
interviewing that I probably have more
10:06
hours than someone that has like a
traditional tech computer science degree,
10:11
based on how many hours
that I put into it.
10:16
And that easily gets me to the next
day where you're not completely.
10:19
>> Any other thoughts on computer science
degree required job postings, Antella?
10:26
>> Can you say apply?
10:32
I am of the mindset that
they can really say is no.
10:34
And at that point you don't
really have much to lose.
10:38
The other thing that I would like
to caution people about is you
10:40
may see a lot of job postings
that say five years or
10:45
more experience to which I'll
say apply to those jobs as well.
10:48
I think as Jeremy and Grant have
highlighted, it's really gonna be based on
10:52
the projects you've worked on and
what types of skills you've gained.
10:57
So as long as you can
articulate those points,
11:01
a lot of times it will sell itself.
11:04
>> Great answers, and
remind everyone what Grant and
11:06
I focused on in our last session
as well is that your first
11:11
step should always be
building relationships with
11:16
the individuals that you're
hoping to interview with, right?
11:20
The cold resume and
a cold application can work but
11:26
the majority of jobs are filled
by people that people know.
11:30
So you want your first step to be
that sales funnel we talked about
11:36
yesterday, right?
11:39
Identify the 100 companies
that you want to work for.
11:40
Identify five people,
every single one of those companies, and
11:43
then put them in a funnel, right and the
first stage is reaching out on LinkedIn.
11:47
Using mirroring which we talked a lot
about to get people talking about
11:52
themselves and build that
likeability before you even apply,
11:58
and then by the time you get to apply,
they think gosh, Antella is nice.
12:03
I know she's taken time to make an effort
and get to know our business and
12:09
she seems really passionate
about what we do.
12:13
And then when Antella says, hey,
by the way, I'm probably gonna apply for
12:15
a position the next couple
months of your company.
12:19
Just giving you a heads up.
12:22
It's much more likely that person's gonna
back channel to the hiring manager and
12:23
say, hey, you should look at her profile.
12:28
I know she doesn't have a computer science
degree but I think she has what it takes.
12:30
That's how most of the hiring happens,
right?
12:34
>> Mm-hm.
>> So just remember that.
12:36
Good, gosh, lots of good questions coming
in, I'm gonna scroll up to one of them.
12:39
From Laney Odette, they said,
I've noticed that most entry level
12:44
job descriptions asked for
one to three years of experience.
12:49
This seems contradictory.
12:54
So I'm thinking this is one of those
qualifications we ignore lots.
12:55
Lots of heads nodding, Antellla.
13:00
>> It goes along with the last
statement I made about
13:04
companies having specifications for time.
13:08
As Ryan kind of just stated, I think
a lot of this boils down to soft skills.
13:11
While it may appear in a lot of these job
postings that companies are looking for
13:16
the smartest, the people who may know all
the information about data structures,
13:21
algorithms, the real hardcore
computer science topics.
13:26
It really is more usually about your
ability to work well with a team.
13:29
Right, so
I'm just kind of keeping that in mind and
13:33
getting an idea of what the culture is
like will help you leaps and bounds.
13:37
>> Great point.
13:42
Go for it, Jeremy.
13:44
>> What I did is I actually
made my own work experience.
13:48
So I reached out to a local
church I used to attend.
13:52
I built an application for them.
13:57
Some nonprofits I used to be affiliated
with, and also just some personal brands.
14:00
And I just like gave them all
the software tools like I didn't need it,
14:04
but I gave it to them because I knew
that I needed to show an employer
14:09
that I can actually do this thing and
then I actually sort of what they now are.
14:14
They called case studies.
14:20
I didn't know it was a case
study when I was doing it.
14:24
I would pretty much like document
the technology that I use,
14:26
the solution was I solving and
the whole ecosystem around that.
14:31
And that was a way just to show that like,
this guy knows what he's doing, and
14:35
he's actually doing it right now.
14:39
So there's really no way that they can
tell me but I did have to do that,
14:40
like two years.
14:45
In order to get my first shot, and that
was my two years of work experience so.
14:46
>> That's great, Jeremy.
14:51
>> And get paid, get paid.
14:51
That's another thing.
14:57
Don't do it for free.
If they see value in you and
14:58
they're taking a chance on you and
they like you.
15:00
Have them put their money
where their mouth is.
15:03
Get paid cuz there's nothing worse
than working on something and
15:05
not getting paid for it.
15:09
And then they're to the roof,
they want like 10k expectations and
15:11
you're like this is a free thing you know?
15:16
So make sure you get paid,
if you can you take.
15:19
Don't don't take peanuts but
take something that's fair for you and
15:23
the client and have some money in
your pocket and do some experiences.
15:27
>> Jeremy, that's gold.
15:32
And that literally mirrors what Grant and
15:34
I were talking yesterday about laddering
up your experience by doing work for
15:36
kind of family friends that own
businesses, or churches like you said.
15:41
But the first one you can
charge 50 bucks for, and
15:46
then you start laddering up your prices so
but but like you said.
15:49
Charging money is important because it
creates this expectation between you and
15:53
the client but also creates.
15:57
It's a real paid job, right?
15:59
So I think Jeremy's.
16:00
Everyone attending should
hear what Jeremy said.
16:03
It took him two years.
16:06
Right, so learning how to code is or
design is yes,
16:07
obviously part of the process but
actually building your experience and
16:11
applying for the job is a process.
16:16
And, it's so view it as such.
16:19
That was great, Grant.
16:23
I think your hand went up.
16:24
>> Yeah, so when I look at
those postings and they ask for
16:26
a certain amount of experience.
16:29
I mean, we break down like
why someone wants experience.
16:31
It's because not only you have
the knowledge but you've gone through,
16:34
like overcome hurdles, right?
16:37
So someone who when they look
at five years of experience, but
16:39
someone who's been tackling problems and
16:42
looking for things to solve can
have more experience in one or
16:45
two years than someone's only been just
doing the bare minimum for five years.
16:48
Show that you're someone who
can overcome the challenges so
16:52
that you have the life experience of a one
to three year experience engineer and
16:56
you've done it in six months and
you can overcome the problems.
17:00
And then you can apply for
that job and be ready for it.
17:03
>> Gold,
kind of piggybacking on what Jeremy
17:07
said about about creating
your own experience.
17:11
I did a networking session yesterday
with a gentleman named Ryan weirdly.
17:15
And he identified as Caribbean and
and he was studying front end and
17:20
I said, could you build a site for
your community?
17:26
Could you be the center of that
community to encourage your community?
17:30
Like, you can use that as a project,
right?
17:34
Build a site, build an app, and
then use that as part of your work
17:37
experience because it shows tremendous
productivity, creativity, girt.
17:43
So everyone listening I think we're all
saying is you can create your experience.
17:49
Just get creative and
focus on what you're passionate about.
17:54
So love that.
17:57
All right, I'm going to make sure
we get through some more questions.
17:58
So Aliyah said, most of the time
internship positions ask for
18:01
college graduates.
18:06
So, how can we get around that
being a self taught developer?
18:07
We need answers on that one.
18:14
Jeremy?
18:17
>> Well, this was a thing because
not only do I have not have
18:18
a college degree,
also didn't have a high school degree.
18:23
I don't have a general
education degree at all.
18:29
So a lot of the time it's going back
to making that relationship like
18:32
Ryan was saying,
first make a relationship with them.
18:36
They'll listen to you a little bit more.
18:40
They'll take a chance on you.
18:43
My first job was at Pandora in Oakland.
18:45
That's my hometown.
18:48
I became friends with the ultimately
become my grandmother.
18:50
She was going to be someone I met her and
we hit it off.
18:55
I told her I'm from the city.
18:58
The first time I saw [INAUDIBLE] light
up he was like a huge thing like
19:03
seeing all these tech companies
come to the East Bay.
19:07
And she'd loved that I
was like a hometown kid.
19:11
And I was literally gonna
be working at a company, or
19:14
possibly work at a a company
that's in my backyard.
19:17
Look at it.
19:20
So that was the relationship and
it's not always gonna be like that.
19:21
But your attention alone is very,
very powerful.
19:26
You might not have all
of the things on paper.
19:30
But if you have that passion,
and you have a lot of attention,
19:32
someone will take a chance.
19:36
For sure, because the developers are,
we're hot.
19:38
We're hot on the streets, people they want
developers, they want to work with us.
19:43
They need us especially now,
more than anything so.
19:46
Just be confident and
have strong attention.
19:50
>> Appreciate that.
19:53
So build the relationship and then use
that to get around that requirement.
19:54
I'm gonna keep going.
19:57
There's a question in the comments
that is coming up a lot.
20:00
Hubert asked it.
20:03
And then same question as Rodel.
20:04
And Yan Yan said, hey,
this would be helpful if we answered this.
20:07
It's basically about age.
20:12
And the question is, is age a factor
in getting a job in tech industry,
20:14
especially an entry level?
20:18
Now, what if you're in your 40s or 50s?
20:20
Who has thoughts about that?
20:23
Yes, Allan.
20:26
>> I will say that I have helped
people from various backgrounds and
20:28
all age groups obtain jobs in tech.
20:35
I can speak for myself personally,
20:38
I was what I would consider
a bit of a late bloomer to tech.
20:40
I didn't get started until I was about 31.
20:43
Which, like I said is fairly late.
20:45
So I don't personally feel like there's
ever a time not to try to do something
20:47
that you're interested in.
20:52
Understand that it will be hard,
it's not gonna be something that's easy,
20:54
but with time and effort,
anybody can do it.
20:59
[INAUDIBLE]
>> I think Grant, your hand went up.
21:02
Yep, go ahead.
21:04
>> Yeah, I would say even
when I was working in retail,
21:06
there is unconscious bias towards
people who are older, right?
21:10
But doesn't mean some of my best employees
weren't people who are older, and
21:15
I would hire equally but
that doesn't mean everybody does.
21:20
So there's a bit of a struggle there I
would say, but what I would tell them is
21:24
when you're applying, make a resume that
doesn't really show your age, right?
21:29
Doesn't matter,
they don't need to know that.
21:34
Show what's your experience, show what
you can do, and then when you get to
21:36
the interview blew him away, and
then doesn't matter how old you are.
21:41
>> [INAUDIBLE],
I think I'm the oldest person here, 42.
21:45
So, I would say, and as a CEO,
what I've learned over the years is
21:50
actually intersectional diversity
is extremely important and
21:55
age is a part of that, right?
22:00
So we do not want companies
where everybody is 25,
22:02
it'll be a disaster, right?
22:06
So, I would encourage you all who
are fitting into that age bracket of 30,
22:09
40, 50 to lead with that as a strength and
say, hey, I'm just gonna call it out.
22:15
I'm 45 and I have a tremendous
amount of life experience, and
22:23
I'm so excited to bring that to this team.
22:27
I know company A B C, you care about
intersectionality and diversity, and
22:30
I'm really excited to
bring that to the team.
22:35
And I'll tell you as I get older and
older,
22:38
I value people's life experience more and
more, right?
22:41
So a good hiring manager and
22:45
a good company is going to
understand that age is a strength.
22:47
So I would just call it out and then if
the company is deeply biased and they weed
22:53
you out cuz of that, then it's probably
not something you wanna be anyway.
22:58
So, that's my thought on that.
23:04
All right, I'm gonna keep so
many good questions.
23:06
A question from Grace.
23:09
They said how do you identify the best
companies that you wanna work for?
23:11
How do you make that list of 50 to 100,
any thoughts on that?
23:15
Yes, Allan.
23:23
>> This is kind of hard,
but at the end of the day,
23:25
I think there are a lot of platforms
out there like LinkedIn that
23:29
will allow you to see what types
of opportunities are out there.
23:33
The big thing is looking at if the company
has anything about their culture out
23:38
there, I think is to align what is
important to you with company values.
23:43
I think that's the biggest thing because
I think that'll dictate whether or
23:48
not you'll actually be
happy once you get there.
23:51
So if I were to say anything it
would be to take a look at what
23:53
the company provides
from a value perspective.
23:57
If you can identify people who work at
a company that you're interested in and
24:00
reach out to them,
24:04
find out what they can tell you
about their experience on the job.
24:05
What it's like day to day, and
24:09
I think that'll help to guide
a lot of that list building.
24:11
>> Jeremy.
24:17
>> One thing that I [INAUDIBLE]
residual base [INAUDIBLE]
24:18
those companies seem to be a little bit
safer to me as far as revenue stream.
24:24
It's important for me to get a job
to make sure I could get paid,
24:31
especially in some of these startups,
you never know.
24:36
So one that had a subscription based
business model was always looked a little
24:41
bit more safe to me.
24:46
>> Okay, Grant.
24:47
>> When I was trying to make that list,
24:49
I thought about kind of like
what I would like to do.
24:52
As in the company I'm working for,
what kind of service do they provide and
24:55
do I find it passionate?
24:58
Am I happy to be supporting that, right?
25:00
So I started there, I mean, and
then I started at the top and
25:03
kind of work my way down.
25:06
So I would think about, I have,
very passionate about environments.
25:07
So I look to companies that
worked in environments,
25:11
who had good cultures they're passionate
about the things happen in the city.
25:14
So if there's anything local or
any companies that help out cities, and
25:18
just make a list of those things that you
like to do and then find the companies
25:22
that do those things and help them out and
then you'd be much happier doing that.
25:26
>> Appreciate you sharing that.
25:31
The pandemic is causing
something very good to happen.
25:32
Bad things going on at pandemic, but
25:41
one good aspect is that a massive number
of companies are now open to hire remote.
25:43
And this was a massive problem before,
right?
25:49
If you were in Pueblo, Colorado,
how do you get hired by Facebook?
25:52
Or how do you get your first
in at any tech company?
25:56
And I can tell you as a CEO who
talks to a lot of other CEOs,
26:02
is that the majority of companies
are now going remote and
26:06
actually, over half of them
are going to stay remote permanent.
26:11
And what's gonna happen is well,
26:16
as companies that don't
embrace remote workforces,
26:18
will actually not win the talent war
against companies that do, right?
26:21
Cuz as an engineer, if you can
work from home at this company and
26:25
you're being forced to go into work at
another place where potentially you
26:29
could catch COVID,
which one are you gonna choose, right?
26:33
So, start looking now for
those companies that are embracing about.
26:37
Okay, let's keep going.
26:40
Lots of great questions.
26:42
Okay, question from Mike.
26:45
What advice would you give to a career
pivot for someone in one area
26:46
of tech to a different area of tech,
for example QA to develop.
26:51
Anyone wanna tackle that, Chick?
26:56
>> That's barbecue chicken.
26:59
That's easy.
27:00
That's-.
27:01
>> Maybe a way for people to maybe
27:04
start off by maybe jumping on
IT to something like that.
27:07
But, I'm not quite sure
what the question was, but
27:12
that's like an easy way to sort of get in.
27:16
And the best thing about IT role that
I've seen is that you can actually work
27:19
on code stuff while you're at work,
27:24
it is not gonna look weird because
you're allowed [INAUDIBLE] anyway.
27:26
So I've seen guys that would
try to make that transition,
27:31
every once in a while they would open
up their personal laptop, hack away for
27:34
an hour or two here and there.
27:39
And it just made sense, it was very,
very smooth transition.
27:41
>> Yeah, I love that.
27:47
Barbecue chicken [LAUGH].
27:47
>> Agree with that, I think,
27:52
at least in my experience of newbies
who don't have the professional
27:54
experience from a programming standpoint
often tend to go to QA first.
27:58
And I think it's important to articulate
that you have goals of growing into
28:04
development so that your leadership
can hopefully provide a path for
28:08
you to grow in that way.
28:12
If you're in QA now, and
28:14
your current company is not open to that I
think is still a good opportunity to get
28:15
in potentially somewhere else that will
provide that opportunity path for you.
28:20
So, I think it's a great thing.
28:25
>> So, I guess we're finishing about
the question is we're actually saying,
28:28
actually, that might be a clever path in,
right?
28:32
So get an entry level role in a part of
the organization that doesn't require
28:35
a college degree, definitely doesn't
require a computer science degree.
28:40
And then being that network, that social
network we built inside the company is
28:44
even stronger, and you can prove it and
say I'm gonna apply for that job,
28:48
you're gonna be put at
the top of the pile.
28:52
So I think that's why Jeremy was
saying it's like BBQ chicken,
28:54
actually that's the best way you get in.
28:58
>> Yeah
>> [LAUGH] Okay, I love it.
29:00
Let's keep going.
29:04
And Michelle, I see your question,
don't worry, I'm gonna get to it.
29:06
All right, so question from Ozzy L.
29:10
They said Is it better to be
versatile by knowing multiple
29:15
skills at an average level or
mastering just a few skills?
29:20
Who wants to tackle that one first?
29:24
All right, Grant go for it,
and next I'll move to you.
29:32
>> Yeah, why that question is tough,
29:36
because the answer is depends on
the company you're applying for, right?
29:38
So some companies, you will just
be doing that one language and
29:43
that's it because they're a huge company
that just needs you to be a specialist.
29:46
And I'm looking for small startups, so
I need to be able to do everything at
29:50
a medium level right now and
then develop myself afterwards.
29:54
So really [INAUDIBLE] what you're applying
to and see what they really need.
29:57
[INAUDIBLE]?
30:01
>> I actually agree with
Grant on that as well.
30:04
I personally feel like it is good to
have experience in multiple languages.
30:05
Just because depending on where you go,
as Grant kind of mentioned,
30:12
you don't know what may come.
30:16
You may be working on one language for
two years, and
30:18
then some new technology comes
out that they wanna implement.
30:20
You're like, hey, I need to get
caught up to speed with this quickly.
30:23
I think it's an important skill to be able
to demonstrate that you can learn quickly.
30:27
So, that's a hard, like I said,
it's a hard question.
30:33
You just have to kinda
determine what career path,
30:36
what you want your career to look like and
kinda piggyback off of that, if you will.
30:40
>> Yep, the reason why learning multiple
languages is good is because you start
30:46
to see patterns, and you actually begin
to learn more computer science, right?
30:52
So for instance,
I think Python is particularly fun and
30:57
easy language to start with if
you're talking about back end.
31:01
And then if you move on to JavaScript,
you start to see for instance,
31:05
it's kind of a fascinating difference
between the two in syntax and style.
31:09
And then if you layer on a simple CS50
course, where you start to get some of
31:15
the computer science basics that
underpin your programming knowledge,
31:20
then it gives you this kind of
wider breadth of understanding.
31:25
And then when the company says, hey,
we need to learn Ruby, you're like,
31:29
I've done that, I've learned new
languages, I can make that happen.
31:34
I wanna give props to all the people
I know that have done that.
31:39
Including Carlos who is started off
as an apprentice at Treehouse and
31:43
didn't know Ruby, now he does.
31:48
[LAUGH] All right, let's keep going.
31:51
Okay, question from Serena.
31:56
I have a question for
31:57
anyone who has social anxiety
to get their first tech job.
31:58
How did you overcome the struggles
to relate to others?
32:04
And what are the tips for
a person like me,
32:07
who has difficulty building relationships
to overcome that and be more comfortable?
32:09
I know practice and
repetition is important too.
32:14
I would like to get to know if
someone has had those issues and
32:18
how they overcome that fear.
32:22
>> I think I can start off.
32:24
I don't necessarily have social anxiety,
but I can tell you this.
32:25
I'm not a stranger,
I love chatting and talking to people.
32:29
But one thing is when I
started to work at companies,
32:33
a lot of people were not like me.
32:37
So I would come in and I would crack
jokes, I would talk about this show called
32:40
I watch,
they wouldn't know the reference to it.
32:44
I'd make a joke about they wouldn't
understand the reference or
32:47
something like that, or music.
32:51
And I found myself kinda
alone a lot of the time,
32:52
in lieu of not being able to fit in.
32:57
And this probably doesn't
answer the question, but
33:00
what I did is I started to create
a culture for myself within the company.
33:04
So if there was a position open,
I would say, hey, you should hire somebody
33:08
that I know or somebody that's a little
bit more closer to my cultural fit.
33:13
But a lot of startups,
they have it within their
33:19
organization to help you feel comfortable.
33:23
So reach out to your HR, reach out to
your people's department, if that's what
33:27
they're calling it and let them know what
your issues are or what youe problems are.
33:32
And they will help you with getting in
there and be like maybe making things
33:37
a little bit more diverse or
even like point of view and resources but
33:42
with groups that may like fit in
a little bit more with your style.
33:47
>> Yeah, thank you Jeremy.
33:52
[INAUDIBLE]
>> I think historically from my
33:54
experience, people who used to jump to
programming or look for opportunities
33:59
in programming were self-proclaimed
introverts or had a lot of social anxiety.
34:04
So I think is extremely common.
34:10
With that being said,
I do agree with Jeremy,
34:11
I think it's important to be upfront about
the potential challenges that you have.
34:14
And as an example, there are a few folks
on my team who identify as introverts.
34:19
So with that being said,
34:24
I know that I'm not gonna put them
in an uncomfortable situation.
34:25
I'll be thoughtful about that.
34:28
But I will put them in
situations to help them thrive.
34:30
What I would encourage is pair programming
to kind of help you overcome a lot of
34:35
those challenges as well.
34:39
>> Thanks [INAUDIBLE].
34:40
Just to be blunt about it,
if you identifies a person of color or
34:43
a woman or
any community [INAUDIBLE] attack,
34:48
what are some things you can do to open
the door to give yourself a better
34:52
chance of getting that interview and
landing that first job?
34:57
>> So, it's a great one, okay great.
35:05
I will say, at least in my experience,
it is extremely,
35:08
extremely important to
just articulate that
35:13
diversity that you do bring to the table.
35:17
I think is very interesting when
you can provide some difference and
35:21
perspective on things that may
not have been seen before.
35:28
So I think it's important, like I said,
to highlight those things.
35:33
I'll also state that
if you feel boxed out,
35:35
if you are interviewing with a company
that you don't feel is giving you
35:38
those warm fuzzy feelings, that's
usually a sign that you won't feel those
35:42
warm fuzzy feelings once
you get on the job either.
35:47
So, like I said, culture,
I can't say enough,
35:50
is extremely important to making sure that
your voice will be heard and that you will
35:53
be able to provide some type of input and
do your job and be helped as well.
35:58
To learn a lot,
I think that's another big deal.
36:02
>> Thanks [INAUDIBLE].
36:03
Any other thoughts on that?
36:06
Jeremy, I don't know if you
wanna talk about that or not.
36:07
No, no answer to that.
36:16
All right, [INAUDIBLE] I
appreciate your thoughts on that.
36:17
Ingrid is asking they have same
question is right as a Brian Witten,
36:24
so I'll try to find that.
36:29
So many good questions coming in.
36:30
Okay, as an entry level developer,
are there combinations of languages or
36:32
frameworks that best serve for
being a well rounded candidate?
36:38
>> I wanna say whatever is popular, and
36:51
I'll say that because a lot
of hiring managers in teams,
36:55
they they kind of go based off what
the community is sort of relevant behind.
37:01
There was like this huge thing a few
years ago like React and Angular,
37:09
everyone like, they're trying to win
like the [INAUDIBLE] wars, right?
37:14
And what I did is I found myself learning
both, depending on the height of each one.
37:19
So, I mean, a lot of it is literally like,
I still to this day I code every day.
37:27
I know not everybody is as extreme as me,
I feel like I gotta go that hard.
37:33
And I love it too.
37:38
It's not just that I feel like I have
to do it, but I love doing it too.
37:40
And you kind of have to be like that when
you're entry level because you don't
37:44
have anything else.
37:49
You don't have experience, you don't
have recommendations from anybody else.
37:50
So you have to be on the Internet,
be on YouTube, be on Treehouse and
37:56
look at what are the trending technologies
that are out there and learn those.
37:59
And what I would do is I would like,
a new JavaScript was something that
38:04
I had to learn like Vanilla JavaScript,
like 123, the ABCs.
38:09
So I would spend a couple days out of
the week learning Vanilla JavaScript
38:14
my own way.
38:18
First thing I was doing was these callback
functions like all of this stuff.
38:19
Just go to those layups and
dribble, and then I will go and
38:22
mess with the language like React.
38:27
And it was a little bit more for me to
wrap my head around because there's a lot
38:30
of moving parts but
I was spend time learning that.
38:34
And then I was a little bit time like
learning something like Angular or
38:37
Backbone, something like that on the side,
just so I'm ready.
38:41
I don't have to get ready cuz I'm already
ready, I'm staying ready all the time.
38:45
It's a little bit of a tug and
pull here and there, and
38:50
you might end up learning stuff
that you may not ever use.
38:53
But at least you've expose yourself and
38:57
you learn about patterns like mine was
about like different patterns that
39:00
are sort of fundamental with
all programming languages.
39:05
And then also,
you can pivot at some point.
39:08
So my caption which was like a PHP.
39:12
When I was going through learning and
I can jump in or something like that.
39:18
So I would say just learn
whatever's hot out there.
39:22
Pick your fundamentals solid.
39:26
Then kind of venture off into some stuff
that's a little bit more advanced or
39:30
a little bit trendy.
39:34
>> Thanks, Jeremy.
39:35
Any other thoughts on that question?
39:36
Go ahead [INAUDIBLE].
39:41
>> I will say, technology changes quickly.
39:43
So I don't personally have
any specific language or
39:47
framework that I will recommend.
39:50
But I do suggest that,
whatever language you are learning,
39:52
to explore the frameworks
that are associated.
39:56
If there are multiple, definitely
understand the pros and the cons.
39:58
Because as you're going through
that interview process,
40:03
they're gonna be asking
questions about that.
40:06
And really build some things, ultimately,
to showcase that you understand
40:08
the fundamentals of what those
frameworks are actually doing.
40:12
>> Good call, thank you all.
40:19
Grant, do you have any idea
on the basic stacks or
40:20
languages someone should
learn to be well rounded?
40:23
>> When I was looking for work and I was
looking through all these different job
40:30
posts, and there was different companies
looking at all different things.
40:34
And I think what ended up doing myself was
I would try all these different things.
40:37
And I found ones that I actually
would gravitate towards, and
40:42
then learn the things around that.
40:45
And I would learn all these,
there's all these,
40:47
the basic tutorial each framework or
language has on their website.
40:49
Go through that, go through those step by
step, but kind of see what the idea is.
40:53
And you'll see if you really like it.
40:56
And also it'll give you an idea
of where you wanna work and
40:58
what kind of work you wanna do.
41:00
And so I did that and
I realized going through that,
41:01
I really like back end and
that's what I really wanna do.
41:05
I mean I tried out React and
it was great, but it wasn't for me.
41:09
I enjoyed Django, I enjoyed Larvell,
I enjoyed those kind of things.
41:12
And then you find those things and then
expand the knowledge base around that.
41:17
And build that stack based on
those things you'd like to do.
41:20
And then you'd be a better programmer and
better suited for the job-
41:24
>> Good answers, thank y'all.
41:28
Appreciate it.
41:29
I'll answer a couple of these questions
that are coming in really quick.
41:31
So Emmanuel said, how much do you
learn from a language before you're
41:34
comfortable putting it on your resume?
41:39
What do you all think is
the right balance there?
41:44
Because you don't want to look to junior,
but
41:47
you also don't wanna not
put things you know.
41:49
Grant, you put your hand on up.
41:51
>> Yeah, so when I was talking
to one of the recruiters,
41:55
I asked him the same question.
41:58
And it's kind of like you will put down
how well you know that language, right.
42:00
I mean don't put it down if you've
just read their landing page, but
42:05
if you've got some work with it and
you got it and
42:08
you feel like with a beginner level,
that's great.
42:11
If you've made some projects,
you've gone to intermediate level,
42:13
put that down that you know this
language at the intermediate level.
42:16
Or if you've know the framework, you
can recite their documentation by hand,
42:19
through memory, then put it advanced.
42:24
Just indicate what you know at
what level and then go from that.
42:26
>> Good answer.
42:30
Anyone else wanna touch on
that before we move and so on?
42:30
>> I wanna stress it's just being honest.
42:35
As Grant mentioned, definitely if
you've only read some documentation and
42:37
never used a technology or
a language, do not
42:42
put it on there because companies will
ask you what you know about those things.
42:45
And if you can't speak to it,
they probably won't be calling you back.
42:49
[COUGH] But if you can articulate,
hey, I'm not an expert in this,
42:55
just being honest and
42:58
upfront about it but I have worked on
some projects and I'd like to learn more.
42:59
And just articulate that you're
resourceful and willing to learn,
43:04
I think that's what companies
are really looking for.
43:06
>> Yes, yeah, it's the behavior
they're looking for really.
43:08
So Mel had a question,
how do you overcome the fear
43:13
of rejection when putting
yourself out there?
43:17
And this relates as well, Jeremy said it
was a two year grind to get that job.
43:21
How do you make it
through that essentially?
43:28
Any tips for staying mentally healthy?
43:32
Jeremy.
43:34
>> I would say don't take
it personally at all.
43:36
Just know that hiring managers,
43:40
they're supposed to source this position.
43:43
I've been in situations where I call
it a stacked deck because they have
43:48
the person that they want to interview or
the person that they want to hire, but
43:53
they have to get six more people in.
43:58
And there has been times where I've
changed someone's mind on that person.
44:00
So, but just don't take it personal,
44:06
just know that if they didn't go through,
it's their loss,
44:10
they missed out on hiring someone awesome,
honestly.
44:15
And I got two years of,
it's a lot of rejection,
44:20
you gotta have tough skin, and
just don't take it personal.
44:24
And just turn that into fuel for
you to get back on your command line,
44:28
get back on the terminal, and to do more
and to put up more chops [INAUDIBLE].
44:34
>> Thank you, Jeremy.
44:40
Any other thoughts on that?
44:41
Grant?
44:43
>> I mean, after hiring so
many people throughout my career,
44:48
it really isn't personal.
44:52
It's you only have one slot and you're
looking for a particular set of skills.
44:54
And it's not that you might be not be
a great candidate, but maybe don't have
44:57
the skills they're particularly
looking for and someone else did.
45:01
So it really isn't personal,
45:04
it isn't like they didn't like
you because of who you are.
45:05
They had a specific role to fill and
they found somebody fit that hole better.
45:09
So just keep going.
45:12
But I would also say, ask for feedback.
45:13
Great companies are open and
honest of why they don't hire.
45:17
The people who don't tell you or they just
send you like an automated email like hey,
45:20
we didn't select you, please try again.
45:26
Move on from those companies, they're
probably not a great place to work.
45:28
The other companies that are great
places to work you didn't hire for,
45:31
they will definitely give you feedback.
45:33
They'll let you know, hey, this is what
we were missing or we would have liked
45:34
to know more about this information but
you didn't provide that.
45:38
And work on that, use that as
an opportunity to grow, not as something
45:42
that you should feel bad about or
down or a personal attack on yourself.
45:47
>> I just wanna go back again and
again to this idea of a sales funnel.
45:52
So remember that you're gonna
put probably something like 100
45:56
companies at the top of that funnel,
and you're gonna work at one, right.
46:00
So we're talking about a 1% success rate.
46:05
And so 99 of those companies
are gonna say no or not reply.
46:09
And you just have to know that,
okay, I got 10 noes, great,
46:15
so I'm that much closer
to getting that one yes.
46:20
And like everyone's saying in this panel,
it is a part of the game.
46:23
And actually, what you can celebrate
is getting to the next step, right.
46:27
So if you put 500 people in the top
left funnel, 5 at each company, and
46:32
you get 1 person to accept your LinkedIn
connection, celebrate that, right.
46:36
That's the thing to say,
ooh, okay, that happened,
46:41
I moved a little closer
to that one job offer.
46:44
Versus thinking you're not successful
until you get the job offer, right.
46:47
So really celebrate that
next meeting win and
46:52
just know 99 out of 100 companies
are gonna say no, and it's okay.
46:54
So, and that's not easy to do,
right, it's traumatic and hard.
46:59
But just knowing that you're marching
through this journey as kind of part
47:05
of that.
47:09
Okay, we got some more great questions.
47:10
Gosh, we're gonna run out of time again.
47:11
All right, I'm interested in hearing
about supportive roles with tech,
47:18
like design and
UX that are less heavy in coding.
47:23
How do you get into those roles?
47:26
Any thoughts?
47:29
Antonella's smiling.
47:30
Go ahead.
47:32
>> I have a UX tech degree,
that is pretty handy, I'll say.
47:35
But I'll find it I think very
similar to how you would go
47:40
about exploring the role development.
47:44
Find people out there who are doing the
type of thing that you're interested in
47:48
learning about and pick their brains.
47:52
They will often be able to guide you
to resources and tools and other people
47:54
that can kind of help you or open doors
for you to get where you need to be.
47:59
>> Good call, thank you.
48:04
All right, a question from another person.
48:07
I'm currently a music teacher,
48:11
how much of those skills
should I include in my resume?
48:12
Grant.
48:17
>> I would say you think
about as a music teacher
48:23
your leadership skills,
your team building.
48:27
Look, there's qualifications to the
thought pattern, being able to memorize
48:32
music, to be able to read something
different in a different language.
48:37
I mean music is literally
a different language.
48:40
Being able to learn that and all these
different instruments shows your mental
48:43
agility, things like that that
will help you as a programmer.
48:47
>> I agree, thank you.
48:51
>> Actually I'll speak to this as well.
48:54
I personally have
a background in music but
48:56
I've worked with a lot of students in the
past who have come from music backgrounds,
48:58
and they tend to do really, really well.
49:02
I think as Grant kind of mentioned,
that there are synergies there that you
49:04
can utilize to express, hey,
I can pick up new things pretty quickly.
49:09
So I would highlight it personally.
49:13
>> Go ahead Jeremy.
49:18
>> Save that portfolio but
maybe not your resume.
49:21
When I started to submit my resume
to places I was putting my sales
49:25
background on here, thinking that
it was gonna help me sort of sell
49:30
myself in a certain way as far as
persistence and things like that.
49:36
But a lot of hiring managers simply didn't
care about that part of my offering.
49:41
But I did have it on my portfolio because
that's sort of a more personal intimate
49:46
thing, and
49:50
I was able to just sort of showcase of
a little bit more of my background there.
49:51
That's like the only thing that
I have to say about that part.
49:55
Got it.
49:58
What we've been saying over and
over again,
50:01
whether it's music or gardening or,
or dancing or whatever.
50:04
If you can use your personal
passions to create your experience,
50:09
that shows a tremendous amount of
productivity, intelligence, grit.
50:14
So take whatever it is, if it is music,
50:20
figure out how to build
a project around that.
50:22
I want to build a website for musicians
in my local area so we can connect.
50:24
And then you're the centre of
that community all sudden,
50:28
that will separate you
instantly from everyone else.
50:31
They'll say, my gosh,
this person not only built this but
50:33
they are the center of a community.
50:36
They're proactive, they care about people.
50:38
It's a great way to take whatever you're
passionate about and make it relevant.
50:43
I think a general question it'd be good
to hear y'alls perspective on is, do
50:48
you need your own personal website, just
period, that you're pointing people to.
50:53
Tell everyone what you think is kind
of the minimum requirement that
50:58
you're gonna need as far as what
you've got on the web to represent
51:03
yourself before you start applying.
51:08
We feel strongly about that.
51:11
So, Sal.
51:16
>> [INAUDIBLE] say I necessarily
feel strongly about this, but
51:17
I think it definitely helps if you have
[INAUDIBLE] one that you built yourself.
51:21
I think it is one of those
projects that you can say hey,
51:25
this is something I built and is working.
51:28
How much needs to go into that
personal website is different I think,
51:31
especially as someone
kind of starting off.
51:35
You can keep it really simple and
kind of look at it like an online resume.
51:38
Or you may link to some of your
projects out there on GitHub or
51:42
somewhere that they're being hosted,
51:47
to show off what your code is some
capacity, or working demos in some way.
51:50
But like I said, I think it's helpful I
don't think is a deal breaker but probably
51:56
for a lot of hiring managers looks really
good for them to be able to say hey,
52:01
you built this, this is pretty cool
>> Jeremy.
52:06
>> I'm a big believer of this,
like, everything that you can do,
52:09
throw everything and
the kitchen sink at it.
52:15
So my resume was actually ridiculous.
52:19
It had all of our projects
I was working on.
52:21
It had my daily schedule
of how I break out my days.
52:24
So like this is like when I'm working on
this, this is what I'm working on this,
52:29
this is when I'm working on that.
52:33
And I even had testimonials
on my portfolio.
52:34
So I put so much on there cuz I just
wanted to just like show a little bit of
52:41
this new sort of feeling like I'm a little
bit behind the eight ball when it comes
52:44
to some of the educational pieces.
52:48
But I just put everything there and
52:49
I'll let them decide what they
were interested in seeing.
52:52
>> Great, go ahead, Grant.
52:57
Thank you, Jeremy.
52:58
>> I would say anything extra you
do doesn't hurt, it always helps.
53:04
But if you have things that you
can show instead of that you have
53:09
a strong portfolio.
53:12
You have strong, if you're doing front
end, strong designs that you've done,
53:13
things that work well together.
53:18
You can do that in lieu of that, but
if you want to do it and [CROSSTALK]
53:19
>> Yeah, I agree with that.
53:22
I can tell you as someone
who's hired a lot of people.
53:24
Whenever someone has their own domain,
ryancarson.com or whatever it is, and
53:26
they've made the effort to showcase who
they are, what they're passionate about,
53:31
what they've made.
53:36
It's always helpful,
it's never going to be bad.
53:37
I mean I remember site, and
53:40
I looked at it before I interviewed her,
and it impressed me.
53:43
So I think there's a lot to that,
that just shows initiative.
53:48
So we only have [INAUDIBLE] minutes left,
53:52
and there's so many questions so
we can't answer all of them.
53:55
So I wanna ask each of you to
give one final piece of advice.
54:00
So what I'd like you to do is
focus on what is the one or
54:04
two things that are just so
important for that getting that
54:09
first job in tech without
a computer science degree?
54:14
You know if someone walks away
from this and focuses on one or
54:19
two things, what would you really
say are the most important things?
54:22
Grant, you can start.
54:26
>> The one thing that pushed
me forward is networking.
54:32
I mean,
we've been echoing that this entire time.
54:36
Build yourself a career support group.
54:39
Find people who will mentor you,
54:41
find people who will encourage you
when you're down and those are hard.
54:43
They'll tell you you're still awesome,
because you need those words,
54:47
you need those people to help you out and
bring you up.
54:50
Because when you go to
your next interview,
54:52
you want to go in there
with that 100% confidence.
54:54
Not the 80% confidence you were left
with after that last rejection.
54:56
You want people to be able to
know that you're doing great.
54:59
You want people to know your name
before you even get to the interview.
55:03
Have those recommendation letters,
have people supporting you and
55:05
that's gonna be the key.
55:09
That was the key for
myself to be able to come to Boston.
55:11
>> That's awesome,
thank you Grant, and Sal?
55:13
>> Yes, I think those are great
points of advice, Grant.
55:14
The things that I think
are most important to me what
55:18
I've learned in my career as
a developer and growing beyond is to
55:21
make sure that you are working
continuously on your soft skills.
55:25
I can't tell you enough how much work
you're going to be doing in teams.
55:29
Even if you're going to be working
sometimes by yourself on certain aspects
55:35
of a project.
55:38
You'll still be communicating and
needing to collaborate with other people.
55:39
So it's extremely important
to work on soft skills.
55:43
The other thing is be very comfortable
giving and receiving feedback.
55:46
There are so many things that
we could learn and grow into.
55:50
And I think a lot of times,
working with others,
55:53
you need to be able to take that feedback.
55:56
Sometimes it might not be great, but
use that to make yourself better.
55:58
>> Thank you Sal, appreciate that.
56:04
Jeremy, what are your parting thoughts?
56:06
>> [INAUDIBLE] they definitely brought
all that [INAUDIBLE] think that I'm
56:12
gonna echo.
56:16
But the main thing is
just to have attention,
56:17
passion for what it's saying.
56:22
Use my story as an example, I like to
see myself as an extremely [INAUDIBLE]
56:26
only have a two grade high
school education, and that's it.
56:31
But I grinded hard, nights,
weekends, holidays.
56:36
At Thanksgiving, we're watching football
but I'm on my computer at the same time.
56:41
And if you're all the way in
this up to your eyeballs,
56:46
there's no way you're not gonna get a job.
56:51
Like it's impossible for you.
56:55
If you're in the rain you're going
to get when you know what I mean?
56:57
So make coding an extension of your
hands if you really want a job.
57:01
And then if you don't have
that level of passion,
57:07
then it may take a little bit
longer to get what you want.
57:10
But if you have that passionate like
that and it's in your blood, and you're
57:13
getting ready to go get it like that,
then someone is gonna give you a chance.
57:19
And when they give you that chance,
you kill it and then make it possible for
57:24
the next person that doesn't
have the qualifications.
57:28
So it's really [INAUDIBLE].
57:30
And that was my responsibility to go into
a job knowing that I do not have all these
57:31
barriers, but the next person
might have some barriers too.
57:35
But I have to show up so
I can prove to the market that hey,
57:38
like we need to take chances on people
that don't have traditional degrees.
57:42
So those are sort of my thoughts on that.
57:48
>> Amen, thank you Jeremy.
57:51
Everything Grant and Sal and
57:56
Jeremy are saying, those are all very
important issues and things to focus on.
57:58
And I will say just remember that
coding or design is a craft.
58:02
Just like learning how to be
a carpenter or a florist.
58:07
You can learn this skill, right?
58:13
The thing that's going to get
you the job is approaching
58:15
the first job application
process like a project.
58:19
And you put in 100 companies,
you start working on meeting the right
58:24
people at those companies, you work on
mirroring with them so they like you.
58:28
And you build those relationships,
and then you apply like a machine.
58:33
And you just know that 99
out of 100 are gonna be no.
58:39
And it won't be easy, obviously, but
if you approach it like a project and
58:44
you just don't quit,
you're more likely to succeed.
58:49
And then once you get that first job, it's
so much easier to get your second job.
58:53
I mean,
then you have experience right, and
58:58
then literally computer
science doesn't matter at all.
59:01
Like I mean it's just laughable,
right, after that.
59:04
So I think we all just here wanna
encourage you, say you can do this.
59:09
And we've got a Slack channel now for
this festival,
59:13
please pop in there and ask for
support and encouragement.
59:18
Like Grant said that kinda
group to encourage you.
59:23
But I hope that these three amazing people
are examples to you all that you can
59:27
do this.
59:31
That it absolutely can be done new, you
three are all extremely inspiring to me.
59:32
And I want to thank you for
leading by example.
59:38
And I wanna thank you for
joining us, so thanks for your time.
59:41
It's really good to see you all.
59:44
Best wishes everybody, thanks for
coming and we will see you for
59:48
the festival tomorrow.
59:52
Take care everybody.
59:53
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