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How to Get Your First Job in Tech with Grant Ovsepyan and Ryan Carson
61:06 with TreehouseTreehouse graduate Grant Ovsepyan discusses their journey from retail manager to web developer.
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Hello, Grants.
0:04
>> Hello Ryan.
0:06
>> Thank you so much for
0:07
doing your main stage session
that was tremendously valuable.
0:08
Really excited to do another
session with you here.
0:12
>> Thank you.
0:16
I had a lot of fun and I'm glad for
what Treehouse has given me and
0:17
I'm glad to give back to the community.
0:20
>> Really appreciate that.
0:22
It's just need to see
all the practical tips.
0:24
So we'll let people filter in and join us.
0:26
And then what we'll do is take some
questions from everyone that's here.
0:29
Hey everyone that's joining us.
0:34
Thanks for competent to chat with you and
0:35
really ask a lot of great questions.
0:40
I'm gonna stay in this session and
just share it with you Grant,
0:44
really excited about that.
0:49
So, I have a couple quick questions.
0:51
I know we're about to get started.
0:58
But you said networking was really key for
you, and as a CEO and
1:00
someone that's hired a lot of
people I can vouch for that.
1:06
So I think we might wanna
double-click on that a little bit and
1:11
give people some specific tactics
that they might wanna do.
1:16
So why don't you think about that for
a minute, what can people practically do?
1:20
And also now that we're in, the pandemic,
1:25
how could that be accomplished
without physically meeting people.
1:28
So let's think about that.
1:34
The other thing I'd love to
talk specifically about ,and I
1:36
get this question all the time is,
if you don't have paid
1:40
experience as a developer,
how do you bridge that first gap?
1:45
And how do you explain that
value to potential employers?
1:50
I'd love to hear you talk
specifically about that gap.
1:55
I think that seems to be the one that
plagues all of our students the most.
1:57
>> Okay.
2:02
>> Yeah, so we're here.
2:03
I just wanna officially
welcome you up to the stage.
2:06
Everyone, as you know,
2:10
this is Grant hopefully you've just
joined his main stage session.
2:11
But if you're just joining us today,
Grant recently graduated from
2:15
the Treehouse PHP tech degree program and
has been given the opportunity to
2:20
finally realize his lifelong
dream of becoming a web engineer.
2:25
He utilizes his past experience in being
a successful retail store manager to
2:29
bring a fresh take on a customer service
oriented approach to development and
2:34
team building.
2:39
He enjoys the challenges
presented as an engineer.
2:40
There's always excited to
learn new coding techniques,
2:43
particularly in the realms of PHP,
Python, and TypeScript.
2:46
Welcome Grants.
2:50
>> Hello, everyone.
2:52
Thank you for joining.
2:53
So one of the questions that Ryan
brought up and it's a big question,
2:55
I think everybody has his network.
2:58
And just like anything else,
networking is actually a skill.
3:00
So when I was working in retail,
and especially at home goods,
3:04
we would have like it's a lot less face
to face, but it's the same kind of thing
3:08
where we would have these huge conferences
where everybody would get together.
3:13
And it was an opportunity to
network with other managers and
3:18
executives and CEOs and retail partners.
3:24
And it was a skill to build and it was
a skill that the company looked for.
3:28
And so I learned those skills in my
current role as a retirement and
3:31
well, not my career,
my previous role as retail manager.
3:36
And it's something that I practice and
3:41
it was very valuable because I remember
hearing a story about one of these other
3:43
store managers I was
looking to get promoted.
3:48
And they ran their store perfectly.
3:50
They were doing great sales.
3:53
And they were looking at to
become a district manager.
3:56
Well, the regional manager was observing
them at one of these conferences and
3:58
noticed that they weren't networking.
4:03
And because they weren't going approaching
people because they weren't going in and
4:05
making those connections,
this person was passed up for promotion.
4:10
That being said,
I use that as an opportunity to network.
4:14
So what do I feel like
is a way to network?
4:17
So, in person and sometimes even online
it's almost like speed dating but
4:22
without the chance of
like breaking your heart.
4:28
It is like you learn how to
make these quick conversations.
4:32
You kind of present yourself quickly and
give you a little bit about yourself and
4:36
then you ask questions.
4:40
And the best way that I learned
that leaves the biggest impression
4:42
is not about what you say,
it's about how you make the person feel.
4:47
So those executives and those people that
I was trying to get them to remember me so
4:53
I got promoted is you make them
feel great about themselves.
4:58
You make them either laugh,
make them do something and
5:01
they'll remember you, they'll stick by.
5:05
Another thing that I was talking about
with networking was the reverse example.
5:09
So when I was a store manager,
I went to help out another store, right?
5:13
And this example of how one of
my system managers came to be.
5:18
I was there for
a week making a little bit of help.
5:22
And one of the team members there who was
just a basic team member approached me and
5:25
went, hey, I'm looking to get promoted,
what kind of advice would you give.
5:30
And I talked to him about, things you can
do to get promoted the skills he needed.
5:35
But that initial, five minute conversation
you left with me left an impression.
5:40
So a year from that point, I had an
opening for a system manager and his name
5:45
came up, and I was like, I remember
him from that conversation a year ago.
5:49
He seemed great,
5:54
I don't even need to do an interview just
given to me as an assistant manager.
5:55
Here's opportunity and leave those
impressions because you never know all
6:00
those little seeds you plant
are gonna make an impression.
6:05
So when we're talking about now, online
networking, LinkedIn is a great place.
6:09
But there's ways that you when you go
meet people even LinkedIn asked for
6:14
ways to keep communicating.
6:18
Ask for that help, ask for
y how you can grow and
6:20
get their advice because
the environments different.
6:24
And everyone is still looking for talent,
we are always looking for talent,
6:28
regardless if you say we're hiring or not
because we never know when that opening
6:31
is gonna open up so
we'd like to have a bench.
6:35
So if you get a chance to talk to people,
you get a chance to introduce yourself,
6:38
take that five minutes, learn those quick
low speed getting pay taxes to kind of,
6:42
plug yourself and
then leave that impression and
6:47
then you never know what will
come from that opportunity.
6:49
>> Absolutely, Grant, I wanna explain a
methodology that I usually tell people and
6:52
I'd like to hear your reaction to it,
as someone who recently entered
6:58
the workforce without
a computer science degree.
7:02
So everyone that's in this session is
most likely in a place where they haven't
7:06
had a developer job before and
they don't have a computer science degree.
7:11
And they're probably
about to finish learning,
7:16
or just about to start to learning,
or in the middle, right?
7:18
But they're not job-ready yet.
7:22
So usually, what I encourage people to do,
7:24
is as you're going through
your learning process, so
7:27
say that you are 50% of the way
through the tech degree at Treehouse,
7:31
then what you start to do is identify the
dream companies that you wanna work for.
7:36
So you basically make a list of, I would
encourage people up to 100 companies.
7:42
And you basically say, okay,
I theoretically would like.
7:48
And then you do basically treat
that like the top of the funnel.
7:55
And you treat it like a sales experience,
right?
7:59
So you said it's my 100 targets,
I'm actually gonna start
8:01
building relationships with us
hiring managers at those companies.
8:06
So then what you have to do is
basically do some detective work.
8:12
So you start to dig around on LinkedIn for
each company, and say, okay, who's
8:16
an engineering manager, or who's a design
manager if you're trying to get a UX job.
8:20
Who are they actually, and then you'll
come up with a list of probably
8:26
depending on the company size,
five to ten people at each company.
8:31
You can also try to find people
who are actually engineers there.
8:36
And then you basically put them on a list.
8:40
So at this point for 100 companies,
five people at each company,
8:42
you have about 500 people.
8:46
And then what you start to do is
just march through this every day.
8:48
So you say, okay, each day,
8:52
I'm going to make a LinkedIn connection
request to these five people.
8:54
But instead of saying something like, hey,
I wanna work at your company someday,
9:00
you instead say something
positive about them.
9:06
For instance, I may if I connect to you,
I may say, Grant,
9:09
I really respect the journey
that you've made into tech.
9:12
I've been following your progress,
I'm a big fan.
9:15
And a LinkedIn connection with
a note is way more effective, right?
9:18
It's much more likely to be accepted.
9:23
So then five people a day,
it'll take you 500, five people a day,
9:25
that will take you 100 days
to work through that, right?
9:31
So every day you're contacting five,
you'll eventually get through the 100.
9:36
And then you basically go down
the next stage in the funnel.
9:40
So say two out of those 500,
50% accept your connection request, right?
9:43
So you've got 250 connections now.
9:48
And now you move to the next
stage of the funnel, which is,
9:51
again say something that's a compliment
about them or praise their work.
9:55
It's all about kind of giving And
then, and it might be something like,
10:01
Grant, thanks so much for connecting.
10:05
I've noticed you have this GitHub
repo that you contribute to a lot.
10:08
I really appreciate your work on that.
10:13
And then it's even more likely to respond.
10:16
And what you're doing is just
building this kind of seed,
10:19
like you said,
planting all these seeds of relationships.
10:22
And you're not even gonna mention you're
looking for a job until maybe the third or
10:25
fourth interaction.
10:30
And at that point, Grant might say, I kind
of like Ryan, he seems to make an effort.
10:31
He seems to be working hard.
10:36
And then when I come back in and
10:38
say I'm really looking forward for
my first position in tech.
10:41
I've worked really hard.
10:46
Here's some of my projects.
10:47
I'll keep you up to date
on my job search as I go.
10:49
And so you basically those 500 people and
you probably end up with
10:52
about 50 that you've actually
developed a relationship with.
10:57
And then at that point, you could say,
okay, I'm ready to apply,
11:01
here's my resume.
11:06
And you're much more likely
to be put forward for
11:08
that job instead of applying cold.
11:12
So, with what do you think
of that methodology?
11:14
How practical is that?
11:18
>> I think that's very practical.
11:20
It shows planning, it shows dedication,
and it shows creating those seeds.
11:21
It's almost like they get
to see your journey and
11:27
know more about you before you
even get to that interview stage.
11:30
And that can be, I think, is more
important than the actual interview
11:35
because I want my employees would ask me,
hey, Grant,
11:39
how do I become an assistant manager?
11:42
I was like, they need to know your name
before you even apply for the job.
11:44
And that's the same method now but
in different environment.
11:48
These people need to know your name and
know about you before you even apply for
11:51
the position, and
that is a great method of doing that.
11:55
>> So I do wanna call out, right?
11:58
I mean, I identify as white.
12:01
I don't know if you identify as white.
12:03
We're both men, right?
12:05
We have a ton of privilege, right?
12:07
And the thing, and what we're trying
to encourage everybody here to do
12:11
is you're essentially trying to
navigate that systematic privilege
12:16
by building a relationship
first before you apply, right?
12:21
So if you are someone that is
underrepresented in tech, we do understand
12:25
that you're going to have to work harder
to build those initial relationships.
12:31
But it's the initial relationship that
will most likely get you the interview,
12:37
because there is a system and
it is a problem.
12:45
But if you try to navigate that
by building a relationship first,
12:50
it's much more likely you'll
be given that interview.
12:53
Because they know you and it's not nice
to admit but people tend to choose
12:57
people that they are familiar with and
they feel friendly towards them.
13:02
So you want to open that door to make
that first friendly interaction.
13:06
>> Definitely, it's kind of weird but
when you know the people,
13:11
the interview becomes almost
a formality and not a natural process.
13:16
They're just doing that to check off a box
on their list that they already know they
13:22
wanna hire you because they've
seen what you've done.
13:26
>> Yeah.
>> And
13:28
that's a great way to overcome
that because going and cold,
13:28
we have to deal with some unconscious
bias training at home goods.
13:33
It is something that we all have.
13:38
It's something we all need to consciously
deal with but we don't because
13:40
it is requires some sort, and
everyone has some kind conscious bias and
13:44
unfortunately, people who are
underrepresented have to deal with that.
13:48
And that is a great way to overcome that,
battle their subconscious bias
13:53
before we even get to that interview,
because then you already have the job.
13:57
>> Yes, so
the other thing I want to by you and
14:01
then we've got some
questions I want to do.
14:04
How do you overcome the lack
of paid experience?
14:07
And what I've been talking, what I've
been encouraging people to do is as
14:11
you're going through, say a tech degree or
Coursera course or Udacity or
14:16
wherever you're learning, you start
to build a real world project, right?
14:21
So it's a website at first and
then it's probably a web app after that.
14:26
As soon as you feel like you've
built your first okay project
14:32
that it works,
that may not be amazing, but it works.
14:37
Then I always ask people to say,
14:42
go find friends in your local
community who own a small business.
14:44
A butcher, a hairdresser, an accountancy,
14:49
somebody that's really small but
they know you, and then basically say,
14:52
hey, I just learned how to build
websites or web apps or mobile apps.
14:57
Can I build you a new website or a new
web app for your business for 50 bucks?
15:02
Like, as cheap as you could possibly say,
to get them to say yes.
15:09
And because you are friends,
they'll probably go, yeah, sure.
15:14
I mean,
they may not even necessarily use it.
15:16
But then you have your first payment
[INAUDIBLE] paid project on your resume,
15:19
and then you do it again.
15:24
And then you go to another business and
say, hey, I built the site for so and so.
15:26
Can I build one for you for $100, right?
15:31
And then they go, yeah,
sure, that's nothing.
15:35
Then you do it again and
15:37
you kind of ladder up to the point where
you charge your first like $1,000 project.
15:38
And then on your resume,
15:44
you have real paid projects
that actually live in the wild.
15:46
They have URLs.
15:50
You've been paid, so
you've kind of escaped that,
15:52
I don't have paid experience barrier.
15:57
What holes do you see
that in that methodology?
16:00
>> So I've actually done that.
16:07
I actually built a website for
a company friend for
16:09
their business when I was starting off.
16:12
And when I look back, I cringe but
it was an early project.
16:14
It is a good way to build that resume.
16:18
There's also things like Fiverr and
Upwork and
16:22
other freelance jobs if you don't
have someone in your community.
16:26
But getting any kind of work experience,
doing projects for other people
16:32
not personally chose that someone trusted
you to do something and you succeeded.
16:37
Because it's different
than a personal project.
16:43
There's someone accountability,
someone's livelihood on that.
16:45
So that is a great way to show
experience without actually having
16:49
a paid experience or even kind of any
kind of experience with projects.
16:54
>> So, cool, thanks, Grant.
16:59
I think both of you and I are trying
to say, the moment not to show your
17:01
imposter syndrome, which we all have
like I literally have that as the CEO.
17:06
The moment not to show it
is on your resume, right?
17:11
Because what you're doing that's
you're exuding confidence that you
17:15
know you don't have honestly, but
it's important that you don't.
17:20
You're not overly humble on your
resume because you'll just shoot
17:25
yourself in the foot.
17:29
So let's take some quick
questions though and make sure.
17:31
Thanks for entertaining those two things.
17:33
Those are the two biggest
things I get over and over and
17:37
over again from students.
17:39
I want to make sure we cover them.
17:41
[COUGH] So
the first question from Nikolai was,
17:42
what do you think are the indicators
that you are ready to look for a job?
17:45
How do you know when you've
gathered enough knowledge and
17:50
worked on enough projects?
17:56
>> That's sometimes a personal question
but based on your level of confidence.
17:59
I struggled with that early, so
I was like, there's so much to learn.
18:05
When will I know enough?
18:09
And the answer I came up with was let
the interviewer tell you, apply for
18:11
those positions and see what you're
lacking and then improve on that.
18:16
Go through those interviews and then
when they go, sorry, I didn't know that.
18:21
Next time you bet that for
the next interview, and
18:26
then you keep going until you've
answered all those questions.
18:28
And then I think that's a great way to
get the feedback because there's just so
18:31
much to learn.
18:35
It's impossible to do
it in a timely manner.
18:36
You need a job, but
you don't need to know it all to get that.
18:40
>> Yes.
18:42
>> And those people are the best people
to give you that advice on what's most
18:43
left to learn.
18:46
>> Amen, and I agree, and I'm saying,
Grant, the thing that for
18:47
everyone to understand is that all of the
skills that are listed on a job listing,
18:51
many of them are nice to haves.
18:56
And so if you look at them and
say you need a 100% of them,
18:57
you'll never be ready.
19:02
There's also research to prove that men
are more likely to apply for jobs when
19:04
they don't meet all the requirements and
women are less likely, which hurts women.
19:08
And so I want to encourage everybody to
understand that everything that's listed
19:14
is not a requirement.
19:18
For instance, we built the tech degree
to make sure that you're ready for
19:19
a junior role, right?
19:24
To complete a tech degree, you're going to
have the practical knowledge to apply for
19:26
a junior role,
even if you don't feel ready.
19:32
And so don't let yourself
get discouraged by that.
19:35
Next question from Mel.
19:39
I have a very eclectic work history,
including FedEx Office as well.
19:42
I've done an extremely wide variety of
jobs until now, none of which are in tech,
19:48
in the tech field per se.
19:53
How would you recommend that I build
my resume without tech experience in
19:55
a way that would appeal
to a recruiter in tech?
19:58
And we've touched on this a little bit,
but
20:00
why don't you answer a little bit more?
20:02
Yeah, so think about the things that.
20:04
So, in FedEx office, we had to do
project management, time management.
20:08
We would have seven to
ten projects stands, so
20:13
those are literally equal to tickets.
20:15
And you have to prioritize, so
show how you prioritize that.
20:18
Show how you made your projects on time.
20:20
Show how you did, if you weren't
getting close to your projects on time.
20:23
Show how you organize yourself, show how
you can plan things and problem solve.
20:27
That's what I did for
my FedEx office experience.
20:33
That's how I showed that.
20:34
The other jobs are show your soft skills.
20:36
Show how you teamwork.
20:39
I work 100% remote from my current job,
but there's so much teamwork that needs to
20:40
happen and so much collaboration,
that those are amazing things to show too.
20:45
How did you communicate?
20:50
Communication skills are so important
right now, especially with Slack.
20:51
The biggest issue I find, and
20:57
this is something that I actually even
practiced in the Treehouse program,
20:59
was how you say something is almost more
important than what you are trying to say.
21:04
You might be telling somebody like,
hey, your program is broken.
21:10
But one way comes off as an attack and
one way comes off as support.
21:14
And so you can show that you
practice on communication,
21:19
you work on your customer service skills,
you work on your timing task management.
21:22
And highlight those big key things
that you are doing today or
21:26
you have done in the past, to show
that you have these core skills for
21:30
Scrum or agile or whatever you need,
because the concepts is the same.
21:35
>> Thank you, Eric and Grant.
21:39
I think what Grant and I are saying
though that, before you even answer that
21:42
question, before you even apply for
the job, you have to build
21:46
a relationship with the company and
the people that you're applying to.
21:51
The brutal reality is that most jobs get
filled by people that someone knows.
21:55
It's the majority of hires
are made that way, so
22:01
you have to work on
building that relationship.
22:04
So, what Grant and I are saying is,
approach this like a sales job, right?
22:08
>> Yep.
22:14
>> You make a list and
you start working your way through it.
22:14
But instead of asking for the job, what
you're doing is building a relationship.
22:18
>> Yep.
22:23
>> And one course that we
don't teach at Treehouse, and
22:24
I think we will at some point.
22:28
There's a masterclass by
Chris Voss on negotiation.
22:30
And the most valuable part
of it is how to mirror.
22:37
And so mirroring is something that
humans can do to actually make
22:41
someone like you more.
22:45
And it sounds Machiavellian and
evil, but it's not.
22:47
All you're doing is, basically,
asking a leading question.
22:50
Like Grant, it sounds like you're really
passionate about solving problems.
22:54
And then you'll just talk, right?
23:00
And then at some point,
you'll say something like, yeah,
23:02
I just just love helping people.
23:06
And I'll say, you love helping people?
23:08
And then you'll talk some more, right?
23:10
And what I'm doing is just drawing you out
and building that liking between you and
23:12
me, and then it's more likely you'll
have another conversation with me.
23:18
And so everybody, what you're doing is
really selling getting that next meeting
23:24
with that person, and or that next email,
and then and then after three or four,
23:28
then you can say, you know what,
23:33
I'm really passionate about
working at your company.
23:34
I'm not ready to apply yet,
but just so you know,
23:37
I'm gonna apply in
probably a couple months.
23:40
And then they'll say, you know what,
23:42
I'm gonna talk to the hiring
manager about that.
23:44
And so everyone needs to understand
this is how hiring really happens,
23:46
right, and so the more you go with
that process, the better, so.
23:51
>> And even if you could do that and
they don't hire you, you can ask them,
23:56
I'm gonna give you a reference,
you're so amazing.
24:00
I wish I could hire you, but I can't.
24:03
But because I am somebody at this level
at this company, they'll take my word for
24:04
it and somebody else will hire you.
24:07
>> Yes, I love that, Grant.
24:08
That's great.
24:10
So, some more great questions.
24:11
How do you navigate sites like Indeed
when they feel very overwhelming.
24:14
>> I had to take a step back for
a second and
24:21
then just narrow it down
to almost by zip code,
24:25
and then by keyword.
24:31
And then sometimes I would just
stop looking for a minute.
24:34
Just I'm gonna refocus back on myself,
reset, then come back to it and
24:37
see what else is new.
24:42
I mean, there was brief periods of time.
24:44
So, I studied PHP and everything
that was coming to me was front end.
24:45
And I was like, I'm not a front end
developer, I'm a back end developer.
24:49
But what should I do?
24:53
And it kinda made me confused.
24:54
So I have to stop and go back and
focus on what I really wanted to do.
24:56
And just let me only filter out
those keywords that I really want.
25:00
Too much information gives you
decision overload, decision fatigue.
25:05
So just filter to exactly, as I said,
25:08
don't do the shotgun
approach in my presentation.
25:11
Do just what you want, know that you want
that and go for that kind of position or
25:14
company.
25:18
>> Cool, and just remember everybody.
25:19
Actually, the job listing sites
are really the last step of your process,
25:22
not the first, right?
25:28
So what you should be doing first is
building that relationship funnel.
25:30
So, it's likely you're not even going to
use sites like Indeed in the end, what's
25:35
likely to happen is that you identify the
100 companies you wanna work for, you work
25:40
your behind off to build relationships
with 500 people are at those companies.
25:46
And then a couple of months out from when
you're actually ready you start to say,
25:51
I'm gonna start applying.
25:56
And then you're gonna hear about job
offers from them that aren't even listed,
25:57
or they will recommend you for
the job and you'll jump the queue.
26:03
So just remember if you start to
feel overwhelemed by Indeed or
26:08
any of those other things,
you're probably approaching it backwards.
26:11
You should be building
relationships first.
26:15
Now, someone did ask me a question,
I just noticed what they said.
26:17
Well, who are you building
relationships with at the company?
26:20
What job titles, Grant, should people
be focusing on in those 500 or
26:23
100 companies that they're
looking to work for?
26:27
>> Well, the higher up the better, but
26:31
that doesn't necessarily mean that
is the correct approach, because
26:34
anyone at a company can at least lead you
to the right person, and at any level.
26:39
Whether it's the person who brings him
coffee to all the way to the directors.
26:45
Because they can go, hey,
I know this great person, take a look.
26:49
And because of that relationship they've
built with someone else in the company who
26:53
has the decisions,
they'll give you that chance.
26:56
>> Agreed.
26:59
This is exactly the problem,
do you sell top down or bottom up?
27:00
>> Right.
>> So do you go for the CEO or CTO or
27:05
VP of engineering or VP of buying,
or you just go for a designer and
27:07
then work your way up?
27:12
I would encourage everyone who is a new
new person in the industry to sell
27:14
bottom up.
27:18
So, build relationships with other new
junior developers at that company, right?
27:19
Cuz they're gonna advocate for you,
they're gonna have time to reply.
27:24
If you're going in and trying to build
a relationship with a VP of engineering,
27:28
or VP of design, they're just so busy.
27:33
They're also not gonna be excited
about hiring a junior, so
27:35
I think it might be better
to work your way up.
27:39
So, look for people that are junior
developers or designers or
27:41
first time engineering managers.
27:45
Right, so, okay, I'm gonna,
let me get to the questions.
27:47
This is so much fun to talk about
cuz this is really where the rubber
27:52
meets the road, right?
27:55
How do you get the job?
27:56
Okay, may I ask, did all job interviews
have a practical coding exercise?
27:58
Any tips on preparing for them?
28:06
>> Actually,
all the ones that I interviewed for
28:09
did have an initial
practical coding exercise.
28:12
How to prepare for that.
28:16
It was something like, I was very nervous
about it first, and honestly probably
28:18
still nervous about it now, because
you don't know what you're gonna get.
28:22
What I realized is though, just like
when you're working in programming,
28:25
everything is open book.
28:30
No one's gonna be at work going, hey,
why are you googling how to solve that?
28:32
You should have that memorized.
28:35
[LAUGH] Are you on Stack Overflow?
28:36
No, get off of that.
28:38
>> [LAUGH]
>> [LAUGH] No one says that at work.
28:39
>> [LAUGH]
>> So
28:41
those type of coding exercises have those.
28:41
Now that being said, I wouldn't copy and
paste an answer, but you can look up how
28:44
to do things and figure out the problem
yourself, and that's totally fine.
28:48
So if you think of it that way,
you should be all right.
28:52
>> So a lot of companies, I would say,
28:58
are not doing whiteboard style interviews
as much, they're doing take home projects.
29:00
>> Yeah, I would get an email and
a website to do it in.
29:05
>> Yeah, so I would encourage everybody,
you might have both experiences.
29:08
If you do a computer science
problem on a whiteboard for
29:14
a junior engineering role, it's
probably not a good company to work at.
29:18
>> Yeah.
29:23
>> That does happen and honestly,
I wouldn't spend your time killing
29:24
yourself preparing for that, I would
be prepared for a take home project,
29:29
which then you can attack like
any project you would tackle.
29:35
So these are great, my gosh,
there's so many questions here.
29:39
Let me grab another one.
29:43
Do you have any tips on how to present
confidence when pursuing a tech career
29:48
when it seems so intimidating.
29:52
>> I used to tell my employees that you
kind of just fake it till you make it.
29:56
I mean, confidence comes
from Your experience, right?
30:01
So, if you practice enough, and
30:08
you if you are confident in
the knowledge of what you have,
30:10
even if you don't know what else they're
gonna ask, you be confident in that part.
30:13
And it's also okay to be confident going,
I don't know that answer, but
30:18
I'm confident that I can
learn that answer, right?
30:23
That's important in tech,
because we don't always have the answer.
30:26
I mean, even our ponies,
a senior developers,
30:29
they don't know all the answers,
they're always looking up stuff.
30:31
But being able to figure things out, and
being able to know that you're confident
30:35
your ability to figure things out,
that's the most important.
30:39
So if you know you have that skill, and
you're confident what you already do know,
30:42
it's okay to say I don't know that,
but I know I can figure that out.
30:46
>> Amen, and again,
this is why it's important to
30:50
build a relationship before
you even take the interview.
30:52
If the interview is with someone that
already has a liking towards you, because
30:55
you've done the work of mirroring them,
and supporting them, and building that
31:00
relationship, they're much more likely to
not try to make you fail in the interview.
31:05
If they're not interviewing,
they'll probably tell the hiring manager.
31:10
You know what?
31:13
This person shown all the right
behavior they're proactive,
31:14
they're interested in us.
31:17
They ask great questions, they work
real hard, I hope we can hire them.
31:19
It's more likely that, that unconscious
bias will then be in your favor.
31:26
>> Yeah
>> And
31:30
Grant and I aren't saying the unconscious
bias is a good thing, right?
31:31
What we're saying is
that it's a real thing.
31:34
>> Yeah.
31:36
>> You have to use the techniques in order
to navigate it as a junior engineer, and
31:37
especially if you're not a white male.
31:42
Okay, more questions.
31:44
Do you have any current mentors who helped
you through this interview process?
31:47
>> Interview process, so
one of my friends is a developer.
31:55
I was lucky enough for
my sisters actually also an engineer,
32:01
and I would ask them questions.
32:06
But also I would also talk to the
recruiters that at least shared with me.
32:09
So in speaking with them, I asked them
like, what are these questions like?
32:14
What can I expect to these interviews?
32:18
And those recruiters
are happy to tell you,
32:21
they'll coach you because they
want you to get that job.
32:23
And they'll tell you
exactly what to expect, and
32:26
they'll tell you how to prepare.
32:28
Now, I have to solicit for those answers,
but advocate for yourself,
32:30
ask the questions, and make sure you
get all the information you need.
32:34
You're not bothering people, and
if that person is bothered by you,
32:39
then there's the wrong
person to be talking to.
32:43
Stand up for yourself,
get all the information you need.
32:46
That saying it's kind of like when the
nail that sticks out gets hammered down.
32:50
Well, this is the reverse,
you wanna stick out.
32:56
You want to be the nail this is like,
I can't get this nail down and
32:58
keep hammering, but they just stand up.
33:01
>> Yeah.
33:03
>> And that's what you wanna be,
33:04
you want to be that person that is
noticed as advocates for yourself.
33:05
Ask those questions, get those resources,
and those are great people to talk to him,
33:09
>> Amen, that's great advice, Grant.
33:13
I think what, Grant is saying is you wanna
be building to relationship groups, right?
33:15
And first is potential hiring, managers at
companies, that's what we talked about.
33:22
100 companies,
5 people each company, 500 people,
33:27
in a march through a sales
process to make them like you.
33:31
But there's another group,
which is mentors.
33:34
And what Grant is saying is
let's reach out to new junior
33:37
engineers who have gotten the job.
33:42
And say, I respect you,
I follow your process, and
33:44
I wanna be successful like you.
33:48
Would you be willing to spend,
30 minutes with me on a Zoom call?
33:51
So I can ask you everything I can
about what it was like to go through
33:56
the process, what questions we got.
34:00
And most people are honored to be asked,
if you say,
34:02
I respect you, would you be willing
to spend 30 minutes with me?
34:08
People are honored by that, most people.
34:14
>> Yeah.
34:17
>> Right, and especially if that person's
new in their job, and you're saying,
34:17
I wanna be like you.
34:21
People tend to wanna
help them pull people up.
34:22
>> Yeah.
34:26
>> So yeah,
then you can ask all the questions say,
34:27
tell me the nitty-gritty
details like what they ask you.
34:30
What kind of experience they look for?
34:34
What seemed to work?
34:35
And the other thing to remember is,
I came up with the exact stats,
34:36
but most people give up when
they're asking somebody for
34:42
something after about two or three times.
34:47
It tends to take at least seven tries
to get someone to reply to you.
34:51
So, I would encourage you whether you're
trying to get a mentor, or trying to
34:56
build a relationship with a hiring
manager, don't give up after three times.
35:00
So you may go to them and someone said,
well, what's the question you can ask on
35:05
LinkedIn to get someone
to accept your request?
35:10
You may say something,
you need to be specific.
35:13
Grant said, you got to do your homework,
you don't want to shotgun it.
35:18
So you may say, Grant,
I've noticed that you went from
35:21
home goods to being as
a software engineer.
35:26
I have massive respect for you,
I've been cheering you on,
35:30
and on Twitter too,
we've love to connect with you here.
35:35
You're very likely to accept that.
35:39
>> Yep.
35:41
>> And so what you're doing is basically
doing some research on somebody and
35:44
figuring out, what are they doing online?
35:48
And how can you give them
a genuine compliment?
35:51
It's very likely that
they'll accept that they.
35:55
Say they don't, you can't pester them
again for a connection on LinkedIn.
35:58
So then you need to go and
find them, are they on Twitter?
36:00
Are they on Instagram?
36:02
Do they have a website?
36:03
Are they in GitHub?
36:04
And then you can ask a slightly
different question over there.
36:06
So on Twitter,
you might say something like,
36:10
I've been following on Twitter,
love your posts about this.
36:13
And then eventually we'll say,
gosh, who is this person?
36:17
They just seem so interested in me,
I guess I'll finally pay attention.
36:19
>> Yep.
36:22
>> And then,
you've got that first foot in the door.
36:23
Okay, another question for you, Grant.
36:28
How did you choose to format your resume?
36:33
>> How did I choose to format my resume?
36:35
So, I went through probably,
36:38
three or four iterations of my
resume before I settled on one.
36:40
It's about, I started with,
your always have to write it yourself.
36:43
So you write which,
36:48
But then my review I sent it to review,
I sent it to these recruiters for review.
36:56
And sometimes they wouldn't tell me but
like the recruiters are like, hey,
37:01
what do you think in my resume?
37:03
And then focused on the things that
they give you, that's good advice,
37:04
and focus on what you think
is what you wanna show.
37:09
So with like the different
kinds of resumes out there,
37:12
I also researched, right?
37:18
So, Google, back resumes, and
see what are some good examples.
37:20
It's fine to mimic things,
but we all do every day,
37:23
we look up answers on Stack Overflow,
and copy that, and make it our own.
37:27
Those resumes can be the same,
you don't have to be unique and original.
37:32
You have to just be able to present
yourself in the best way, and
37:35
find out the answer.
37:38
So I would say, start with the base copy,
look what other people are doing.
37:39
And get lots of advice,
polish it, polish it,
37:43
polish it, because resumes is
the easiest way for someone to go.
37:47
I'm not gonna hire this person because
they didn't take the time to do
37:51
the resume.
37:54
>> Yes, yeah, good call.
37:55
So, I really liked what you said in
the main session where you said,
37:56
something around proactivity, and
solving problems, and how it is.
38:01
I've noticed that
the things that I look for
38:06
are almost extracurricular
projects that they're doing.
38:10
So for instance,
I'm mentoring someone named Emmett,
38:15
and he created a Slack group for
developers.
38:20
And actually, that was the one thing
I saw on his resume that I thought.
38:24
That shows productivity,
that shows organization,
38:29
that shows a level of social intelligence,
that's interesting.
38:32
And so, I think you can highlight
passion projects, especially when say,
38:37
I built the things, I'm passionate
about it, I'm curating this community.
38:42
It's very likely some will say, I want
this person or that person to work here.
38:48
So that's one thing that's
not paid work you can put on.
38:51
But I I do have to say, I'm pretty.
38:55
When I see someone that just has
GitHub repo links it's a red flag,
38:56
because you think there's
no real projects here.
39:03
And that's why I think people need to
figure out how to get those small,
39:07
big projects basically as
a freelancer to kinda bootstrap.
39:12
So that when you click that URL,
39:16
it's actually a live posted
project instead of just a repo.
39:18
What do you think about that?
39:21
>> I agree,
it's kinda showing the soft skills that
39:23
people talk about,
that you work with other people.
39:28
One of the things that drew
attention to people on my
39:33
resume was actually my time as a Slack
Champion in the tech degree program.
39:36
Everyone loved that, that I gave back and
did code reviews, and helped other people.
39:39
Because honestly,
most of my time I'm here,
39:45
I'm helping my other teammates at work.
39:47
I'm doing their code reviews,
I'm giving them feedback.
39:49
And being a Slack Champion I'll
develop those skills of,
39:52
how do you communicate through text
in a way that is received well?
39:55
And so those little projects, right?
39:59
So it wasn't much my time.
40:01
But it was something that stood out.
40:03
Doing things that are extra or going above
and beyond or showing that you're more
40:05
than just the programming,
you're a person with a personality.
40:10
You can contribute to
the culture of the team,
40:14
because programming is
something that can be taught.
40:17
That teamwork, that care,
40:20
that sense of being part of
the company is harder to find.
40:23
And that's what you can show you
do with all the other things.
40:27
>> Awesome advice.
40:29
So what Grant's talking about is in
the tech degree, once you pass unit three
40:31
usually, then you're allowed to do
code reviews on projects 1, 2 and 3.
40:36
And then you can continue to do that.
40:41
And showing that you can code review and
that you put in
40:45
the extra effort to do that is
a massive green flag, a positive flag.
40:50
So if you happen to be going
through a tech degree, absolutely,
40:57
grab the opportunity to do code review and
do a ton of it.
41:01
So that's one thing and then being
the other thing is being a slack champion.
41:05
We basically,
promote people who work very hard and
41:08
slack to say we wanna recognize you for
that and give you more responsibility.
41:11
And Mike and Grant said that
instantly helps filter you above
41:16
other people that are also new
developers but don't have that,
41:21
so those extra effort projects
are a great thing to do.
41:26
Okay, so let's get to some more questions.
41:30
Thanks so much for dropping so
much knowledge, man, this is great.
41:33
Okay, gosh, there's so many questions.
41:38
I may have to do another
session at some point.
41:42
I'm gonna go like some newer
questions that just happened.
41:45
Edlund said, how do you deal with, quote,
but you're overqualified, end quote.
41:48
Which is a question that comes up
a lot for career changers, but
41:53
we're not overqualified as developers.
41:57
How do you deal with that?
42:00
>> Well, I even at so when I was a retail
store manager and had people apply,
42:03
I had people who work entry level
positions who had master's degree and
42:08
at one point,
I had someone who had a PhD in physics.
42:13
[LAUGH] A lot of things and
if they're saying
42:16
you're overqualified, there's [INAUDIBLE].
42:21
It's not about the qualifications,
it's about desire.
42:26
So if they think you're overqualified,
then
42:31
show them that desire of why it's not my
qualifications that I want to work there.
42:33
It's that what I can bring to
your company in your culture,
42:38
in your teamwork and other things, right?
42:43
So I don't think there's
ever an over qualifications,
42:46
you sometimes you do go like why does this
person with a PhD want to work in retail?
42:50
But you ask them,
you can even address that initially.
42:54
Hey, I just want to talk about
I do have a PhD in physics, but
42:58
I love retail, and I love customers.
43:02
I need this experience or
[INAUDIBLE] address that?
43:04
What does that [INAUDIBLE] and
how you can support that and
43:10
is it gonna distract you, right?
43:14
So an initial interview or your cover
letter or whatever opportunity to have.
43:16
>> Yeah, that's a good point.
43:22
I'd also like to say sometimes that's
someone being a coward and not saying no.
43:24
They're trying to give you a nice way
of saying they don't want to hire you,
43:30
but they're not being honest why.
43:36
So I think you can say,
can you tell me more about that?
43:38
Why do you think I'm
overqualified to know more?
43:44
And you may flash out that they're
just being biased and or even worse.
43:47
Or you may find that there's
something that you didn't understand.
43:52
You can say, yeah, well,
I know that, I'm 54 and
43:55
I've worked all across the world and
it may seem like a step down to you that I
43:59
want to be a junior software engineer,
but it's not.
44:04
I enjoy creativity.
44:08
I enjoy building things and I'm being
proactive about a career change and
44:09
I'm excited about that.
44:12
>> Yeah.
44:14
>> So that's a tough,
that's a good question.
44:15
That's tough when it happens.
44:18
A question from Caroline.
44:20
How to find those companies that,
we talked about those a hundred companies,
44:22
specifically working with
a text actor interested in?
44:29
>> Most companies that I've researched,
usually kind of talk about the tech stack.
44:34
And if they don't,
it's sometimes in the job posting.
44:40
But I would say some of it like if it's
a very big company, I found that that
44:44
it's likely that they have a version
of whatever you're studying.
44:50
If it's a small startup, then they
usually announce it because they don't
44:55
have the options to filter
through all that badly.
45:00
>> Yep, but like what Graham said,
just look at their job postings and
45:03
you'll start to see some common things.
45:07
If they're full stack JavaScript, or
if they're a PHP shop or a Ruby shop,
45:09
you'll start to see some similarities.
45:14
But like Grant said,
if it's Google or Facebook or
45:16
something, they're gonna have a need for
every kind of engineer.
45:19
But again, this is why you got to build
those relationships first, right?
45:23
Once you identify, I think this company
is using the stack that I've learned and
45:27
you go and build those relationships, so.
45:33
Okay, next up.
45:36
All right,
some of these we've covered already.
45:42
Okay, question from Ryan,
would you advice pursuing internship
45:45
opportunities as an alternate to entry
level software developing roles?
45:50
>> I would say those are great but
45:56
make your intentions also
little known upfront, right?
45:58
So if you have the opportunity to
do a short term internship, and
46:03
they're gonna maybe hire you afterwards,
I think that's a great start.
46:07
Even if it's maybe a summer thing,
46:12
if you can afford to do that
also show someone did that.
46:15
When I was speaking to the recruiters,
one point,
46:19
I did apply to like an Amazon internship.
46:22
But because of COVID, they weren't hiring.
46:24
They said they might get back to me but
it's not a bad avenue,
46:28
I would say, pursuit.
46:32
But you also look at your means,
what is comfortable for you?
46:33
Can you live off of an internship salary,
or do you need to find a different way?
46:38
You worked what your current job,
continued supporting yourself.
46:43
And then find different ways to build
that experience, maybe do part time,
46:47
work that out.
46:51
So it's a personal question, if you can't
do it, it's a great way to start, too.
46:52
>> Yeah, I echo what Grant said.
46:56
I mean, often, if you're privileged,
you can afford to do an internship.
46:58
Yep, that's not fair, right?
47:05
So, clearly if you, if you can say,
I can work for free for you,
47:06
that's gonna build a lot of goodwill.
47:11
It's more likely you'll get hired but
that's just not possible for
47:13
the majority of people.
47:17
So, yeah, if you can get an internship and
you can afford to, great, but
47:19
most people cannot.
47:24
>> Yeah.
>> Also,
47:25
be a little careful that they're not
just looking for someone to make coffee.
47:26
You actually want to be writing code and
47:31
being actually a part of
something to do that.
47:33
>> Yeah, if it's free to make your own
demands of, hey, this is free, but
47:36
this is what I need to get out of it.
47:39
>> Yeah, I love that.
47:40
Yeah, my time is not free so
this is all I got in return.
47:42
Okay, so a question from Amir.
47:46
What wait does Stack Overflow GitHub and
hacker rank portfolio?
47:51
How much is that worth and
getting developer jobs?
47:57
>> I don't really have a good answer.
48:05
I would say anything that you can
show that you've done work or
48:08
contributed helps.
48:12
But if you're not comfortable,
I mean, if it's scary place,
48:14
putting yourself out there.
48:16
I know a lot of people even have a hard
time contributing to open source GitHub
48:18
projects.
48:22
So anything you do helps, and
if it's something that you can't do,
48:23
then supplement that with something else.
48:27
So it's a little personal issue.
48:29
>> Agreed, I think as a junior engineer,
48:32
you're just not gonna get a lot of
rank on those sites, and it's okay.
48:34
You're not expected.
48:38
It could be a good idea to go
on hacker and can just practice.
48:40
>> Yeah.
48:44
>> But I would say we don't look for
those things to house so.
48:45
Okay, so it's interesting is there's
a theme that comes up over and
48:50
over again which is around projects.
48:55
This is a good one from Alexandra.
48:57
I've been working at multiple
jobs at the same time,
49:01
working as a server and doing freelance
internships and personal projects.
49:04
Do I need to add on LinkedIn,
my server experience as a waiter or
49:09
waitress or bring it up during
interviews or leave it out completely?
49:14
Also, who do I need to
talk to a network with
49:19
hiring managers HR, etcetera?
49:24
>> So I would not leave that out.
49:27
That is your past that talks
about what you've done.
49:30
In my presentation, I highlighted, show
what you're using in that job that's gonna
49:34
translate to what you're
going to do in tech.
49:39
As a server,
you're constantly helping customers,
49:41
bring out those experiences where you went
out of the way to make a customer happy.
49:44
What does that show?
49:49
Well, when I'm working
with my team members,
49:50
I have the personality to go out
of my way to make them happy.
49:52
That's what you're showing there.
49:55
You're working in a team and
you're going out your way.
49:57
To make someone's life better, to make
someone's job easier, show that you saw
49:59
some something as simple as Hey, I
noticed this customer was having trouble,
50:04
even asked me for help, but they needed
this thing, so I even brought it to them.
50:08
Find examples that you are being
proactive, you can find problems and
50:13
solve them before they've
even been shown to you.
50:17
Show that how you want to become promoted
if you wanted to, whatever you're doing in
50:20
that to excel, those are great things
to highlight in your LinkedIn,
50:25
your resume, things that show you got
the qualities that people are looking for.
50:29
>> Great answer.
50:33
>> Yeah.
50:34
>> So obviously, how do you show that,
so do you list like I was a server
50:35
at Red Robin from this day to this day,
then you add text after that and
50:40
say, here's how I solved some
problems while I was doing that?
50:45
Or here's some of the things I did there
versus just listing the job and the dates,
50:50
is that how they?
50:54
>> Yeah, so
if you look at my retail resume,
50:55
it's very different than
my programming resume, so
50:57
I picked out the things that I felt like
would be great, that I'm a problem solver.
51:01
So in the retail resume, I showed I
handle KPIs and I handled scheduling and
51:06
all these things that I'm not
gonna be doing as a developer, so
51:11
I don't need to put that on my resume.
51:14
I did show that I helped grand
open the Hillsborough store, so
51:16
I helped solve all these issues and
overcame like, teamworking,
51:19
challenging and time task management,
which just translates to tech.
51:23
So bring those things over,
talk about the things that are teamwork,
51:27
time and task management, problem solving,
51:32
what's called thinking outside of the box,
coming up with unique solutions.
51:35
Those are all the things
that translate into tech, so
51:41
bring those things over and listen.
51:42
>> Yeah, what Grant is saying,
show your real experience but highlight
51:44
the emotional intelligence that you've
demonstrated why [INAUDIBLE], right?
51:49
Don't just list server but say
specifically how you actually solve new
51:54
problems for that employer-
>> Yeah.
51:59
>> While you're there, it shows a pattern,
right, and that's why doing
52:02
a ton of code reviews in your tech
degree or being a Slack champion,
52:06
again shows that every employer
what they really are looking for
52:11
is someone who practically
solves problems, right?
52:15
So if you're demonstrating that behavior,
even if you're a server,
52:19
they're gonna say, my gosh, well,
imagine what he'll do as an engineer
52:22
>> Yeah.
52:26
>> So, another big question from Rose,
so let's say you're ready to go to
52:27
the interview and this is probably
gonna be a resume during the pandemic,
52:31
do people still wear
suits to tech interviews?
52:36
No, tell me what you're supposed
to wear or how you're supposed
52:38
to present yourself physically
to the first Zoom interview.
52:44
>> So I would actually research
the company, so I would look at,
52:48
go through a website,
I would dig in through all their links.
52:53
I would even like read through like
some of the contract pages and terms or
52:57
conditions because they
have different tips and
53:01
you can assert what kind
of company they are.
53:04
And then,
I was still say dress to step up, but
53:06
I don't think unless the company looks
like they're a suit and tie company,
53:09
don't wear a suit, but
you wanna be dressed nice.
53:13
You wanna be clean,
53:17
you wanted to be professional
in a sense that you're hygienic,
53:18
you've got nice clothes on, you wanna be
there, you're presenting your best self.
53:21
The other side effect to that though,
is when you dress nice,
53:27
you subconsciously feel nice and
that is presented in your interview.
53:31
So if you look like you feel good, you're
gonna be talking much more confident.
53:37
>> Yeah.
53:41
>> And you're gonna be having
much better interview, so
53:42
take that into account as well.
53:45
>> Agreed, now, Grant and I are white men,
53:46
like what looks professional to us
is related to white culture, and so
53:49
we're not saying it's important
to be white in your interview or,
53:54
if say if you're Black,
to not wear your hair natural.
53:58
What we're saying is, and what Grant is
saying is, come dressed in something that
54:02
makes you feel confident, something
that you you feel good at, right?
54:07
That's thing one,
number two is if you think,
54:11
I have tattoos, right, so
a bunch of tattoos and
54:16
if I'm not sure how someone's
gonna feel about my tattoos,
54:20
I tend to cover them up just
in that first interaction, so
54:25
I don't give them excuse
to weed me out somehow.
54:30
And then once I build a relationship, then
I'll be more transparent about who I am,
54:34
there may be things about your body
that you feel the same way, you may or
54:39
may not do that.
54:43
But again, it's about confidence,
54:44
if you feel confident with your tattoos,
or your hair or the way you dress,
54:46
that's more important than worrying
about if you'll fit in exactly.
54:49
And also, if you're gonna be at
a company where they judge you for
54:53
being Black and having natural hair or
for your tattoos,
54:59
then maybe it's not a good
place to be anyway.
55:04
>> Yeah.
55:08
>> But I know sometimes when
you need that first job,
55:08
sometimes, you just need to get in, so
there's a hard balance there to walk, but
55:11
I love Grant's advice of just being
comfortable, being confident.
55:16
We're almost gonna be out of time,
I'm sure to grab a couple more questions.
55:20
All right.
55:30
How do you identify red flags,
such as too much work for
55:34
too little pay or
red flags in a job interview?
55:39
It seems hard to know when
you're being taken advantage of.
55:43
>> So red flags in a job interview,
now going through all these interviews,
55:48
sometimes, you might have to go with
your gut because what your gut is,
55:52
is basically your subconscious
taking all your past experiences and
55:57
telling you hey, something's not right
here, I just don't know what yet.
56:01
The other part to that is look at
what their requirements are and
56:06
don't let them take advantage of you.
56:10
If you've done your research,
the market rates for salary,
56:13
you know what the demands are,
56:17
then you know you've got your knowledge
as someone who's got your back, right?
56:19
That's what you have,
that's your power, and
56:24
then you know if they're
taking advantage of you.
56:26
You have to be an advocate for
yourselves and you have to stand up and
56:28
fight for what is yours,
you know it's difficult process,
56:33
it's hard to have that conflict, right?
56:37
So any kind of negotiation
is basically conflict, so
56:40
when you're in the interview and you're
negotiating, you're trying to find terms,
56:42
it's a skill to have, but it's also
something that needs to be learned.
56:47
If you feel like the company themselves
is trying to take advantage of you,
56:50
then you might need to just keep going
because that's not the right place.
56:55
Even if you get the job at a disadvantage,
you're not gonna be happy and
56:59
it's not gonna be what you want or
what you need.
57:03
>> Yeah, I agree with that, it's a hard
thing to walk when you're looking for
57:06
that first job and you just wanna get in.
57:10
Let's talk about salaries for a little
bit, so if you don't have a computer
57:12
science degree and you don't have any
chunky paid experience, what do you think
57:16
people should be looking for, for
that first salary as a junior developer?
57:21
And I know it varies if you're
in San Francisco and whatnot-
57:25
>> Yeah.
57:28
>> But talk me through that a little bit.
57:29
>> So knowledge is valuable, don't
undervalue yourself, that being said,
57:30
experience is also valuable, but
there isn't like a starting rate.
57:36
So depending on the market in the city, I
would say anywhere that makes you less so
57:40
40 to 60,000, depending on the city, is a
good starting rate for a junior engineer.
57:45
If you, and I live in Portland, so it
was a little higher because it's hard to
57:51
pay for stuff here, but
in smaller cities, it's easier.
57:55
And what's even better if you work remote
and you live in a small city or work for
57:59
a company in big city, they might even
pay more because you go, hey, all your
58:03
employees are remote, why are you paying
less because I live in a different city?
58:06
>> Yes.
58:10
>> I needed the pay to be the same.
58:11
>> We pretty consistently
place people between 60 and
58:13
65K in our apprenticeship
program across the country.
58:17
Again, it will vary, but
the most important thing for
58:22
everybody to realize is that once you
have that true paid job on your resume,
58:25
then the sky's your limit, right?
58:30
>> Yeah.
58:32
>> Then you can be jumping
after that pretty quick, so
58:33
I would say if you're paid,
like Grant said, somewhere between 40 and
58:37
65 for that first role,
it's a good foot in the door.
58:43
And then you should be looking for raises
after that, is that same for front end and
58:47
back ends?
58:51
They don't vary, I mean, but yes, roughly.
58:51
>> Yeah.
58:57
>> And again, most of the high paying
jobs, high growth jobs are in back end, so
58:58
I think you should be thinking
about full stack in general,
59:03
front end is a great way to start though.
59:07
So okay, we are almost out of time,
Grant, this has been amazing for
59:10
you just dropping all your knowledge,
all of your experience, thank you so much.
59:15
>> I appreciate it, thank you for
giving me the opportunity, it's been so
59:22
much fun and I love sharing,
I love teaching.
59:25
I did that as a retail manager,
and this has been amazing for
59:28
me to be able to do that here,
it's just been wonderful.
59:31
>> So there's a massive demands for
another session and I'm just wondering
59:34
how about, why don't we consider this,
so everyone that's listening,
59:38
if you go into Slack, so
we've created Treehouse Festivals Slack,
59:43
we'll post the links everywhere,
so you can get in there.
59:48
And there is a channel
in there that I created,
59:52
it's called Getting Your First Job,
59:57
so please go in there and
ask more questions.
1:00:01
And Grant, you're busy, you have a job so
you don't have to do this,
1:00:06
but if you feel like being in there,
I think then I'll be in there.
1:00:12
And if there's just so many questions,
then theoretically, I can chit chat to
1:00:17
Grant about doing another kind of
off-the-cuff session maybe tomorrow or
1:00:21
Friday or something like that.
1:00:25
But I'm not gonna put you on the spot,
Grant, say yes or no, but maybe if you
1:00:27
could message me later and let me
know if you'd be willing to do that.
1:00:31
But regardless, if you're watching this,
please go into that Slack channel and
1:00:34
post more questions, I know that this is
a very scary part of switching into tech,
1:00:39
and we wanna be here to support you.
1:00:44
So with that, thanks again, Grant,
congrats on all your hard work and
1:00:46
thank you for
giving back by sharing the knowledge,
1:00:51
I really appreciate it, and
I'll keep cheering you on.
1:00:54
>> Thank you, Ryan, thank you, guys.
1:00:58
>> Take care, see you, bye.
1:01:00
>> Bye-bye.
1:01:00
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