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Your Guide to the Interview Process with Zainab Ebrahimi
63:30 with TreehouseLooking for a software engineering job and feel intimidated by the interview process? You're not alone! Join us to get an insider look into what to expect and how to properly prepare so you can get that sweet job in tech you've been working so hard for. Zainab Ebrahimi (She/Her) will spend an hour outlining how you can conquer the job search and find the role that's best for you. Be prepared to ask questions and make live connections following the presentation.
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[MUSIC]
0:00
I think we're doing it.
0:03
All right, we're doing it.
0:04
Well, welcome to your guide
to the interview process.
0:05
I'm Dr. Toni Josato, chief learning and
operations officer here at Treehouse.
0:09
Today I am thrilled to welcome a fantastic
0:13
speaker today, Zainab Ebrahimi, yes.
0:18
And she is the co-founder of Florish,
a platform to help software engineers
0:24
looking for jobs navigate and
manage the interview process successfully.
0:28
Her passion for equity on access to tech
jobs and education has been [INAUDIBLE]
0:34
driving force in her ten years of
the industry as a software engineer,
0:40
manager, programming teacher, and mentor.
0:45
Most people call her Zee,
I might call her Zee.
0:49
She's a proud to be an Armenian-American,
and
0:52
is currently based out of Brooklyn,
New York, y'all.
0:55
Please welcome Zee.
0:59
>> So excited to be here.
1:02
My name is Zainab, as we just heard.
1:03
My pronouns are she/her, and
I am the co-founder of Florish.
1:08
I'm not gonna go over this again.
1:15
But please go check us
out if you're interested.
1:17
I've been in the industry for
almost ten years.
1:21
I like to talk about this because I've had
1:24
kind of a wide variety of
experience in the industry.
1:28
I've done some hiring, I've been hired.
1:33
I've done some teaching and coaching.
1:36
And now I'm a founder.
1:39
So I kind of bring all of these
perspectives into my work, and
1:40
hopefully, into this talk.
1:44
That would be super useful.
1:46
So I wanted to get started by
getting a feel for the room and
1:49
getting some interactions in the chat.
1:52
So are you currently actively looking for
a job and interviewing?
1:54
So let's answer in the chat a yes or a no
if you're currently actively interviewing.
2:00
Some interactions in the chat,
just respond with a yes or a no.
2:12
Don't feel shy.
2:18
It's totally fine.
2:19
I've already got a no for
actively, not yet.
2:26
Okay.
2:34
Great.
2:39
All right, so it seems like some folks are
getting ready for the interview process.
2:42
I'm sure there are probably other
folks that are actively interviewing.
2:48
Just kind of wanted to get a sense of
I can kind of cater this conversation.
2:51
All right, sweet.
2:57
So we're here to talk about a guide,
specifically for software engineering, for
2:59
the interview process for
software engineering.
3:03
However, some of the principles
that I'm gonna share are pretty
3:06
extensible to other disciplines in tech.
3:10
So if you're not a software engineer or
you're not looking for
3:13
software engineering role,
this might be still helpful.
3:17
All right, so here's the thing.
3:21
The software engineering interview process
is not standardized, and it's different.
3:23
It's different in every single company.
3:28
It might be different in the same
company in different teams.
3:30
And so it's pretty hard to determine,
hey, this is the one way that you need
3:33
to prepare, and this is the one way
that it's gonna be like, right?
3:37
But here's high level, the three
different types of interviews that you'll
3:42
definitely encounter in one way or
another.
3:47
Which is the phone screen,
which is the first call.
3:49
Generally not very technical,
mostly you have conversation.
3:53
Then you'll have some kind
of technical challenge,
3:56
which I think a lot of us are pretty
probably intimidated by, right?
3:59
And this one can vary.
4:04
It could be anywhere from live pairing
of a particular algorithm problem.
4:05
It could be a take-home challenge.
4:12
It could be a quiz.
4:13
It could be a time quiz.
4:15
There's so many variants to this.
4:18
And then lastly is what is traditionally
called an onsite, which is a series of
4:20
interviews, both technical and behavioral,
that happen, most likely on the same day.
4:25
And it tends to be that last stage.
4:31
However, this changes.
4:34
It is not exactly like this for every
company, but this is kind of the modality.
4:35
Now, people will tell you, hey, in order
to get a job as a software engineer,
4:41
you have to practice LeetCode exercises.
4:47
You have to get really good
at algorithm questions and
4:50
data structures and
understand how to whiteboard.
4:54
And you have to know what Pico notation
is, etc, and the list goes on.
4:57
But the interview process is,
there's a lot of unknowns, right?
5:05
You don't really know which kind of
modality you're gonna be presented with.
5:11
So how do we prepare for the unknown?
5:17
And I like to kind of take
a different stance, right?
5:20
I'm not gonna tell you, hey,
this is the methodology for
5:23
practicing your algorithms
every single day.
5:28
I like to really think about it in these
kinds of principles that are much more
5:32
holistic.
5:35
In order to prepare for the interview, you
have to reinforce what you already know.
5:37
And we have to embrace that we already
have what it takes to get a job.
5:43
And these two things might be
a little controversial, but
5:48
I'll show in practice how it works out,
and how it's worked out for me as well.
5:50
All right, so let's start with this
conception that I definitely had, right?
5:54
Nobody formally taught me
how to interview for a job.
6:00
I somehow learned that it kinda
seemed like it was an interrogation.
6:06
Where I had to prove myself,
I had to impress an employer, and
6:11
the employer had basically,
all the cards stacked against me, right?
6:15
However, what I've learned in the past
ten years is that the interview process
6:22
is a matchmaking process.
6:27
Where both the job seeker and
the employer come together to share
6:28
the skills that they need or they have
to offer, the value that they need or
6:34
they have to offer, and
what their expected worth looks like.
6:40
And once that's determined,
it gets communicated.
6:46
And if after it gets communicated, there's
an alignment, there's a job match, right?
6:49
And this perspective kind of falls
under this framework that we
6:56
created at Florish, which is the SBW,
where skills are the tasks and
7:01
responsibilities that either
a job seeker can perform.
7:06
Right, so if I'm a front end engineer,
it's that I can write some HTML.
7:11
I can write some React components.
7:16
And on the employer's side,
it means I'm looking for
7:21
someone that can write some HTML,
some React components.
7:25
The value is all about culture,
processes, and growth.
7:30
So from my job seeker perspective,
how do I adapt to, or
7:34
my ability to adapt to the culture,
processes, and
7:39
the growth that a company can offer?
7:43
Or how can I enhance the culture,
process, growth?
7:46
And then on the employer's side
is what kinda culture, processes,
7:52
and growth do I provide to a job seeker?
7:57
Lastly, I kind of went through
this part about worth,
8:00
it's all about compensation, right?
8:02
How much am I expected to be compensated?
8:04
And from the employer's side,
how much am I expected to compensate?
8:07
So that's kind of our framework.
8:11
And once I had this notion
that the job interview
8:15
process is a matchmaking process,
there were these
8:19
three steps that I started to take
in order to get the right job.
8:23
You don't want just any job,
you wanna find the right job.
8:28
And so these three aspects are,
one, you have to really embrace
8:34
the self-awareness of what your skills,
values, and worth are.
8:39
The second is honest communication.
8:45
How do I prepare so that I'm representing
myself properly and honestly?
8:49
And then lastly,
how am I empowered to ask,
8:54
is this a good match?
8:59
All right, so let's get through this and
9:04
kind of like take you on this
journey of what this looks like.
9:06
So the self-awareness [INAUDIBLE], we're
gonna use this SVW framework as a guide.
9:10
So what does that look like?
9:15
So I am getting ready for an interview,
9:17
I need to know what my skills are.
9:22
And that understanding actually
requires a lot of introspection.
9:26
So I tend to go through these
questions and write it down, right?
9:30
What is the role that I'm looking for?
9:33
I wanna know specifically, right?
9:36
Is it front end engineer, full stack
engineer, senior engineer, manager, right?
9:37
And what skills do I have
to fill that role, right?
9:45
And we have to be honest, right?
9:48
I can write HTML, I mean,
I keep going back to HTML.
9:50
Who uses HTML anymore?
9:55
[LAUGH] I can write React components that
are very nimble, that are reusable, right?
9:57
I Have a lot of skills with CSS.
10:04
Whatever the case may be,
all of the skills,
10:08
just write them down so
that you can see them.
10:13
Then, when I'm coding I like
these little questions,
10:17
when I'm coding,
what am I normally obsessing over, right?
10:20
Do I like to really
obsess over how it looks?
10:24
Or how I didn't like
the interactions work?
10:28
Or do I really love to write
code that is very readable?
10:31
What is it like to really introspect into
what is it that brings you to this role,
10:36
to this job, yeah,
what would you love, right?
10:43
What do you really like
doing in this role?
10:48
What are you really passionate about?
10:51
And just kind of just writing those
down so you're fully aware, so
10:53
these are my skills.
10:57
Then the next up is the values.
10:58
So, remember that the values
are all about how we can
11:01
enhance culture processes and
growth of a company?
11:06
And I want to take a moment
here because a lot of times,
11:11
we disregard what our
past experiences are.
11:16
So I really wanna hone in on what
are the unique experiences that
11:21
you're bringing to the table?
11:26
What makes me different?
11:28
For example, when I was in middle school,
11:30
I was on the basketball team and
I did competitive basketball.
11:33
And so I have a very focused team
player mindset because of that, right?
11:38
So I bring that to the table.
11:45
I've been teaching MuyThai for
a couple of years, so
11:47
I bring that to the table as well, right?
11:52
I love teaching or I like to help others.
11:55
So think outside the box, it could be
things that you did in high school,
11:59
things that if you are a career changer,
things that you did at your previous job.
12:04
What out of that job can you bring into
this role that could be helpful to
12:09
a potential employer to help
build up their culture,
12:14
build their processes, and
just grow their product?
12:17
And so really kind of honing in on this,
like, hey, I'm different,
12:22
I'm unique, and I bring all of this value.
12:25
That's super important.
12:29
And then the last part is what am I worth?
12:30
And I feel like this
one is a very hard one,
12:33
because nobody teaches us
how to figure this out.
12:36
But first of all, I would say,
make sure to determine
12:39
how much you need to live comfortably,
right?
12:44
So you can pay your bills, right?
12:48
And so
that includes if you have student loans or
12:50
you have any kind of loans and
you need to pay them.
12:54
Think about health insurance.
12:57
Think about if you're getting
some savings, your rent, right?
12:59
What would be a comfortable number?
13:04
And I'm not saying that that
is your worth, right, but
13:05
that is your baseline, right?
13:08
You do not wanna go under that number,
right?
13:09
And then the second thing that I would
say with figuring out your worth,
13:13
which is something that I learned
recently is that you wanna reach
13:19
people in your city that
are in similar roles now.
13:24
This part is really important,
because the salary for
13:28
a software engineering role is gonna be
different depending on where you live.
13:32
But not only depending on where you live,
but
13:37
also depending on the size of the company.
13:41
So I would suggest trying your best
to reach out to someone that works at
13:44
a company in your city in a similar
size to a company that you wanna join.
13:49
If you don't know what size
company you wanna join,
13:55
I would say reach out to multiple people.
13:57
Maybe one person who works at a large
company, someone that works at a medium
14:00
startup, and
one that works at a a super tiny startup.
14:04
And ask him the following, and it can
be someone who's from any role, right?
14:07
Hey, how much does a software engineer or
14:13
whatever role you're looking for,
with X amount of experience make?
14:16
So how much does a frontend engineer
make with three years of experience,
14:21
or with one year of experience,
or just getting started, right?
14:26
And people wanna help, you'll be
surprised you're not being a burden and
14:31
it's not especially if you're not
asking directly, how much do you make?
14:36
I think that one is a little bit harder.
14:42
I mean, though, I feel like I'm a big
proponent of salary transparency, so
14:43
that should be fine.
14:47
But yeah, just ask, hey,
can you find out for me?
14:48
And we were more than happy
to help with that question.
14:52
And then,
you have a better sense of, okay, so
14:57
it sounds like maybe a starter
salary's around 80k, or
15:00
90k, or whatever the case may be,
all right?
15:05
So that's the first step, right?
15:09
We have the self-awareness,
we know what our skills are.
15:11
We know what our value is, what our worth
is, we know what we bring to the table.
15:14
And I was talking initially
about the principles, right?
15:18
We really embrace this.
15:22
This is who we are.
15:23
This is what we're bringing to the table.
15:25
So the next step in the process
is to communicate honestly, and
15:27
it's all about representing
yourself properly, right?
15:31
So we go back to these principles, it's
all about reinforcing what we know and
15:36
embracing that we have what it
takes right now to get the job.
15:40
So the interview process is
a matchmaking process, right?
15:46
And so in this scenario where it's
the employer that's asking the question,
15:50
hmm, is this job seeker
candidate a good match?
15:55
Our role as a job seeker is to have
awareness of our skills, value, and
15:59
worth, and communicate it properly,
honestly, and clearly.
16:04
So a lot of times, what happens is that,
maybe we have the skills that
16:09
an employer's looking,
we provide a lot of value, right?
16:13
And maybe even,
our expected compensation is fair, but
16:17
we get stuck communicating it, right?
16:22
Either we're super nervous,
either we freeze up,
16:25
or we tell the wrong story, right?
16:31
These are all fair things and
they happen, right?
16:36
But if we are able to communicate
honestly and clearly,
16:39
we're able to determine more
accurately if the match
16:45
with this employer is
actually gonna happen, right?
16:50
And I say honestly because no one
benefits from a poor match, right?
16:56
On the employer side, it's super costly,
on the job seeker side, it's super costly.
17:04
So you don't really have to, and
we're just using this framework,
17:09
but you don't really have to try to fit
a mold, that's basically what I wanna say.
17:14
So we're gonna continue to use this
this framework into this new principle,
17:21
which is communicating honestly.
17:27
So what does that look like?
17:30
All right, so our skills, right?
17:31
So when we are at an interview, and we
don't know, I mean, probably we just got
17:34
told a couple of days ago what the
interview process was gonna look like, or
17:39
what the technical was gonna look like.
17:43
And what we need to embrace is it's
all about over communicating, right?
17:47
It's okay to say that you don't know,
but always give your best guess.
17:52
It's more about figuring out,
proposing what you would do
17:58
if you were faced with this particular
problem, and explaining in detail.
18:03
And this works with any single
modality of technical interview
18:09
that's out there, right?
18:13
Except perhaps for
the time quizzes and stuff like that.
18:15
But we'll get to that in a second, and
18:20
we'll kind of talk about how that
fits into this whole framework.
18:23
But yeah, if you're talking to someone
about your code, about your skills,
18:28
always over communicate, and come from
that place with what you actually know.
18:34
And if you don't know, always talk about,
hey, this is my best guess,
18:40
this is what I would figure out.
18:44
I was in an interview recently, and they
asked me a pretty complicated question.
18:46
And I said, normally,
I would go well, with this.
18:51
Now is the truth, right?
18:55
But I was like, but my best guess is
that it's probably something like this.
18:57
And the interviewer kinda laughed,
and he was, yeah,
19:03
I would probably Google this too, and just
showed how ridiculous the question was.
19:05
But that's totally fine,
it's totally normal, all right?
19:10
So the value side, so,
when we're communicating about our value,
19:13
one thing that we definitely
need to prepare for is, and
19:18
most people tell you this, is they tell
me a little bit about yourself one.
19:22
This one you need to know, every
single person will ask this question.
19:29
So make it into a story that really tells
that narrative about how unique you
19:33
are and how you got to this job,
right, or how you got to this role.
19:38
Always wanna bring up what makes you
unique and what you bring to the table.
19:44
Now, one thing that I would say, do not
describe yourself especially if you're
19:47
getting started as a junior or
an aspiring software engineer.
19:52
Now this is my next question.
19:56
Have you done this before, yes or no?
19:58
On the chat, I'm gonna check
to see what's going on chat.
20:02
Have you described yourself as a junior or
aspiring software engineer?
20:07
To share in the chat, yes or no.
20:23
Okay, we got a no.
20:42
Thank you so much Alex here
participated in today's session.
20:43
I got some no's,
we got some aspiring, okay.
20:49
The reason why I ask is because I
definitely did it When I was getting
20:52
started, I didn't feel comfortable
calling myself a software engineer.
20:56
And so I would tell people I was
an aspiring software engineer or,
21:01
you know, I hear you know,
lately a lot of people, you know,
21:06
tagging on the The the Junior label,
and it really isn't necessary and
21:11
it actually does more to
downplay your skills to downplay,
21:16
your abilities than to do
like give you any benefit.
21:21
You have done the work, you can code.
21:25
So that makes you software engineers.
21:29
Pretty simple.
21:31
All right, so the last bit of this kind of
21:33
honest communication
bit is the worst part.
21:37
So you want to stand by the compensation
expectations that you already have and
21:42
you always want to negotiate
when it's time to talk to you.
21:48
Get an offer or talk about the offer.
21:53
super important.
21:56
So it's like honest communication is
all about how you talk about yourself,
21:57
right and these three categories.
22:02
And what I like to ask myself
at the end of the interview is,
22:07
did I represent my skills,
my value and my worth properly and
22:12
honestly Because, a lot of
the interviews can be very emotional.
22:17
Right?
22:23
You might feel like,
you you're not good enough
22:24
you might feel maybe that
the questions were really tough or
22:27
really grueling really hard,
right and that's the end of it.
22:31
I always like to ask myself this
question because it grounds me, right?
22:36
It's like, did I represent myself?
22:40
Right?
22:42
You know,
did I represent the skills that I have?
22:43
Did I represent, you know,
the value that I bring to the table?
22:46
And if the answer is yes then that's okay.
22:50
You know, The interview itself,
22:51
the process itself was probably
not the best representation or
22:54
the best assessment for my skills,
my value and my worth, right?
23:00
So that's totally okay.
23:05
And if the answer to this question is no
That's also okay because then it gives us
23:07
some insight into how we
can do better next time.
23:11
And there's really no need to contort
ourselves into like these molds that don't
23:14
fit, right we have these values we have
these skills we have this worth, and
23:19
there's a job out there.
23:23
That's like ready for us.
23:25
It's only a matter of finding it.
23:26
And this is another thing that I like
to remind myself is to do our best.
23:30
We have to be at our best.
23:35
So self care and
like confidence boosters are a must.
23:37
And I have a lot of examples about this.
23:41
So, last week for a technical job And
the night before,
23:43
a friend of mine was in town, so
I went out for drinks with them.
23:48
So I was like, Yeah,
I'm just gonna get a drink.
23:55
A drink ended up being way too many drinks
and the next morning, I was hung over.
23:58
I had a really bad headache.
24:05
And there was only a couple hours until
this interview was going to happen.
24:06
It was a technical interview.
24:10
And I know going in I knew going in that
I had done something not very smart,
24:12
because I was going to struggle
through this interview, right?
24:16
Because my nerves are hard, right?
24:20
So you want to be at your best right so
like,
24:22
if that interview did not go
well I knew that in great part,
24:25
I had to do that with the fact
that I wasn't at my best, right?
24:28
And so like,
take that into consideration, too, right?
24:33
Like, are there stressors
that are like influencing
24:35
the outcomes of your interviews?
24:39
Right, especially your
technical interviews,
24:42
can you do something to make sure that
right before that technical interview
24:44
You're either taking care of yourself
you're drinking water, you're going for
24:48
a walk, you're doing something
that makes you feel good.
24:52
So I always like put into like this
this part about the confidence boosters
24:55
is a lot.
25:00
I hear a lot of people that
do like leetcode exercises or
25:01
like start like studying like crazy And
I highly discourage that
25:05
before the interview,
you do not want to do anything that makes
25:10
you feel more, less,
less confident or more discouraged.
25:15
Right?
Like you want to do
25:20
things that do the opposite.
25:22
So for example, if you want to do
a leak code exercise before a technical
25:23
interview Do the easiest
exercise you can find,
25:28
don't try to challenge yourself and
be like, well, I need to really
25:31
practice the hardest one just in case
they give me a really hard exercise no.
25:35
I do that.
25:41
I'll do like a very easy Lee code
exercise or code wars exercise.
25:42
Just to like, Boost my confidence.
25:49
I mean, because I know that I'm going to
be able to complete the exercise, and
25:53
it's gonna make me feel good.
25:56
And it's just gonna make
me feel less rusty.
25:58
So do things that fall into these
two categories before you go into
26:01
the interview because it's going to
have a huge impact All right, so
26:05
we were talking about the importance
of like honest communication and
26:08
like representing yourself properly.
26:12
And last, we got feeling empowered, and
26:14
inquiring from a place of empowerment and
26:19
asking this lovely question that I
love which is is this a good match?
26:23
Now the interview process
the matchmaking process.
26:31
I'm gonna kind of drill this because
I feel like it's super important.
26:33
Both parties come to the table and
both parties had equal footing.
26:40
Now The job interview itself is a two
way consultation and I like this this
26:46
definition because each party is asking
this question is this the right match?
26:51
Now this this word match is super
key Here's an example of an email
27:00
that I got recently from an interview
that I was going through and
27:05
which kind of like really,
I love this email because it shows
27:11
what a great two way consultation
An interview can be right?
27:16
This is an employer that's reaching
out to me after an interview and
27:21
they're asking me Hazy, how are you
feeling after our chat yesterday?
27:25
Is this still something
you're interested in?
27:29
Right, so it gives me agency like they
are acknowledging that even after
27:32
the interview,
I may not wanna continue Right?
27:37
And it's not only that the company right,
27:41
the employer does not wanna continue
with the interview process, right?
27:43
That, they're saying, Hey,
we think that there's a potential match.
27:48
Do you believe there's a potential match?
27:52
You know, and so this kind of dynamic
is like the ideal scenario that we need
27:54
to strive for when we're
approaching the interview process.
27:59
And so I know a lot of you may be like,
Okay, that sounds like really nice and
28:04
pretty, but it actually does not
feel like that at all right?
28:08
It feels more like the employer
is this giant shark that's trying
28:11
to live I've like we're barely
getting through the interview.
28:15
Like I feel you and
I can explain why that is.
28:20
And so, remember we said that
the interview process is a two way
28:25
consultation where each party
is asking this question.
28:28
Is this the right match?
28:32
Now employers take this
question very seriously
28:34
because they don't benefit from employees.
28:39
Being a bad fit.
28:44
Right in fact, is very expensive.
28:46
So I'll maybe ask the chat.
28:49
See if if y'all are in the mood to engage.
28:52
How much do you think a bad
hire costs an employer?
28:56
Good to know that people are also
chatting in the stage side.
29:13
Great, thank you so much, Julia.
29:17
Okay, we got a 40K, we got a 200k.
29:22
30k, all right?
29:26
A lot.
29:27
Yep.
29:28
A, nice.
29:31
A year supply of campaign killers.
29:32
[LAUGH] That's a great one.
29:34
[LAUGH] These are all great.
29:35
So, yes, it's a lot.
29:37
It's estimated, it's around 250k.
29:39
So, you know that the employers do not
want to be spending this amount of money
29:42
on a bad hire, right?
29:46
And so, they're putting A lot of
effort into making sure that it's,
29:48
you know, the hire or the person that
they hire is a good match for them.
29:52
And some people are,
I mean, some companies,
29:57
some employers are savages, right?
29:59
Like they're, they're going to go all in.
30:01
I want to pose a question because I
have been talking about the employer and
30:04
how much it costs the employer To hire
someone that does not fit or match.
30:09
How much does it cost for
us as job seekers to join a company,
30:16
or a role, or
a job that was not a good match?
30:22
Now, I'm not gonna expect anybody to
answer this question right now, but
30:27
I'll leave this question, because it's
one that I think about a lot, right?
30:31
We don't know,
we don't have a dollar amount, right?
30:36
But the burnout that comes with it,
the delay in promotion that comes with it,
30:41
the hit in our self-confidence
that comes with it.
30:48
All of that, I feel like we could
potentially find a dollar amount if
30:53
that's what actually incentivizes
us to really feel serious about
30:58
this question, Is this a good
match when we're interviewing?
31:03
So employers feel entitled
to a good candidate yet
31:10
somehow we do not feel
entitled to a good job.
31:13
So that is why there is, well,
that shark kind of like person shaking
31:16
kind of feeling is because
companies think is very important.
31:22
We But you know, we do not.
31:27
And I think that it's really
important that we rethink that, and
31:30
we make sure that we're
evaluating the employer.
31:33
Right.
So when it's time for us to ask them or
31:37
when it's time for the employer to
like show us what their skills,
31:40
their value and their worth is.
31:44
We're constantly asking
ourselves is this a match and
31:46
this goes through the entire process right
since the first call with a recruiter all
31:50
the way to the end to you
know the offer letter.
31:54
And the employer also struggles sometimes
with communicating these things.
31:58
So we're gonna like overlay this
with the SV W framework, right?
32:04
We have skills value and worth.
32:08
So what does this look like to approach,
32:11
asking about the skills from
an employer in an empowered way.
32:14
So I have bad news and maybe you've
already all kind of experienced it,
32:21
but the job description is not accurate.
32:27
It actually sucks.
32:30
Most companies do not put
a lot of thought in it.
32:33
And a lot of companies
do a lot of copy paste.
32:36
Sometimes the job descriptions are written
by recruiters that don't fully understand
32:39
the role.
32:44
And so
a lot of times there's a lot of words,
32:45
there's a lot of skills that
are expected sometimes there's like,
32:48
the wrong number of years are written for
like maybe an entry level job.
32:53
So this is unfortunate, right?
32:58
Cause this is like the first
view we have into like, hey,
33:01
what kinds of skills is
this company looking for?
33:04
But.
33:08
The general rule of thumb is to apply for
33:09
any job that you feel at
least 60% of the skills or
33:13
the requirements listed.
33:19
Right.
So anything in the vicinity of it looking
33:22
like you could fill the job description,
apply.
33:25
Because the important part, is when
you talk with the recruiter with that,
33:28
the first person that you talk to, right?
33:32
In that specific moment, is that
you need to drill into this because
33:35
the job description is wrong, right?
33:39
Do not assume that the job
description is correct.
33:41
So you want to ask Hey, so what kinds
of skills are you actually looking for?
33:44
Or Why was this position opened up, right?
33:48
So then it'll give you a little
bit of an insight into like,
33:52
is it that they are hiring maybe like
a person to help a senior engineer?
33:56
Or they're looking to replace
an engineer that was already there?
34:02
Like, why are they opening this up so
34:05
it gives you a sense of like
what they need You know,
34:08
in this person that they're
hiring.All right, so value.This.A
34:12
lot of people call like figuring out
what the culture of a company is.
34:18
It's really more than that, right?
34:24
Because its culture processes and
34:27
growth.So The interview process
like the way that it's structured
34:29
will tell you a lot about what kind
of value the company will offer you.
34:35
Right.
So, does the interview process,
34:41
evaluate your strengths?
34:43
Right?
34:45
If the interview process like especially
the technical is Another irrelevant
34:45
to the kind of work that you do or that
you are strong in or the kind of role or
34:51
skill that you're aspiring to do at
the job then maybe like rethink,
34:57
is this a company that,
would be a good match for me, right?
35:02
Because every single interview process,
has a particular philosophy behind it.
35:06
[INAUDIBLE] thought out the process is,
the more, maybe,
35:14
people-centric the company is.
35:17
When you're getting interview processes
that are much more compassionate,
35:19
it says something about
the people behind it.
35:25
And then also you want to make sure
that you get to know your manager and
35:30
your team member.
35:34
These are the two main groups that
you want to get to know during
35:36
the interview process,
35:40
because they will be the key to your
growth to your happiness at this company.
35:41
So make sure to ask Personal questions
that really gets to the core.
35:47
So for example,
I like to ask questions like,
35:53
well, how and so
what time did you work yesterday?
35:56
Right?
36:00
So it gives me idea of like
their work life balance, right?
36:01
Or I'll ask questions like,
36:03
if you have like a magic wand What
would you change about this company?
36:05
So that gives me a little bit of
an insight into whether or not people feel
36:10
comfortable talking about things that they
believe need to change the company, right?
36:14
Or like, hey, if I wanted to, like
really know what the diversity quota or
36:18
you know what The type of
people are in the company or
36:24
the team LS like hey, so
who would be on my team?
36:27
Can you give me the their names?
36:31
And then you can look them up on LinkedIn
right and then get a sense it's like okay,
36:33
maybe there's like two women or one woman
or there's no women or like, you know,
36:37
there's a couple people of color or
no people of color and
36:41
like Ultimately it's up to you.
36:44
But you can get this information
you need to get this information in
36:45
order to understand like,
will I do my best at this job?
36:49
Right?
Well is this job right for me?
36:53
And then lastly, you can familiarize
yourself with the engineering process.
36:58
So like how does the ticket get created?
37:02
Or how does product get get done?
37:05
it's always helpful because then it
gives you an insight of what's expected
37:08
of you throughout that process, right?
37:11
Do I need to know about these ticketing
systems like JIRA, or whatever?
37:13
Do I need to run a lot of scripts?
37:19
Whatever it gives you like,
a lot of context.
37:23
And then lastly, when inquiring
from a place of empowerment,
37:27
we want to ask what the salary bands are.
37:33
And my trick here because you know
talking about money is really hard.
37:38
Is to ask for
salary bands in your first call.
37:42
So, some people feel very
uncomfortable by this, but
37:48
I feel like this is
the best time to do it.
37:51
The recruiter that you're talking to
on the phone or the hiring manager that
37:55
you're gonna be talking to on the phone
already knows what the salary bands are.
37:58
They're not gonna,
like freely tell you, unfortunately.
38:03
But if you ask them they should know.
38:07
And it's also not rude to ask, right?
38:10
Because in that first call, it's kind of
like trying to figure the other one out.
38:13
And so just like they will ask you most
likely what your salary expectation is.
38:17
And if that makes me very uncomfortable
and you don't really know that number, yet
38:23
Are you don't want to give it away,
you know as first, you know,
38:27
be the first one to ask like, hey,
yeah, that all sounds really great.
38:30
So what's, what's the salary band?
38:33
They'll have an answer or they'll like,
direct you to someone who does and
38:38
then also, always Benefits also talk
a lot about a company right like
38:42
do they offer maternity leave,
what is their PTO etc, etc.
38:46
So, you know you understanding what
your compensation expectations are and
38:50
like do the match with
what they have to offer.
38:55
So I like this approach of
thinking about it as a match
39:01
making process because I
hear this way too often.
39:05
When people go through the interview
process, and they're like,
39:10
I got rejected, or people even
employer say, we've rejected x, y,
39:15
z, and I really dislike this word.
39:19
Because it comes from this very fixed
mindset where you either pass or
39:22
you fail, either you're accepted or
rejected.
39:27
And really,
it's not about that at all, right?
39:31
What really happened is that the employer
did not see that you were a match, right?
39:34
And you can actually do the same thing.
39:41
About the employer, right?
39:45
You can have this story that's
like one of my favorite.
39:47
I was helping this girl Jenny.
39:52
She was going through the interview
process and was struggling a lot.
39:54
Because she was really overwhelmed, and
39:57
she was interviewing
with Reddit at the time.
39:59
And I remember her explaining to me like
what the interview that she she had just
40:02
gone through, looked like or
sounded like and I was like Now,
40:07
it sounded like they were
really condescending.
40:11
They're kinda intimidating, and curt, and
40:14
she didn't seem to have
enjoyed that interview at all.
40:17
And I was like,
why are you still interviewing with them?
40:19
And she was like, what do you mean?
40:24
Why am I still interviewing with him?
40:26
I was like, it doesn't sound
like you wanna work there.
40:27
And it doesn't sound like that's
a team that you wanna join.
40:29
So why are you gonna continue waiting for
them to respond,
40:33
to give you an answer, and continue
to go through the interview process?
40:37
And I was very pleasantly surprised,
that she was like I didn't know,
40:43
that I could do that.
40:47
That I could withdraw from
the interview process.
40:49
And I encourage that, because every
interview is very emotionally intense,
40:52
right, especially technical ones.
40:58
So if you can avoid companies or
interview processes,
41:01
because you already know it's not a match.
41:04
Don't do them.
41:07
I know a lot of people say,
you need the practice.
41:09
Honestly, if you don't think that
the job is even like barely good match,
41:13
don't do it.
41:19
Because it will hurt a lot of your
confidence, it will hurt you emotionally.
41:20
So if you're ready see the signs
just back out, it's totally fine.
41:26
It's actually much more empowering.
41:31
And try to continue to practice obviously,
you have to practice, and
41:33
you have to do many interviews.
41:36
But practice with companies that you
think that maybe could be a good fit,
41:38
cuz they seem compassionate,
or they seem nice.
41:42
They seem like they have the same values,
or they want similar things as you.
41:45
But yeah, there is an option of
you saying, like, hey actually,
41:50
I don't think that there's a match.
41:55
Sending people in email and being like,
hey, thank you so much for that interview.
41:57
After consideration, I would like
to withdraw from this process, for
42:01
XYZ reason.
42:05
It's an option.
42:06
Cool, and so, these lovely principles,
42:10
Of reinforcing what we know,
embracing takes
42:16
to get a job are the key of everything,
right?
42:21
This is how I approach interviews.
42:26
I'm like, I have these skills,
these values, these worth, and
42:29
just kinda being very centered in it.
42:33
And knowing that will
get me a job somewhere.
42:36
I just need to find it, right?
42:41
As opposed to being overwhelmed with
trying to figure out what is it that I
42:43
don't know?
42:47
And how do I learn all these
things that I don't know, right?
42:48
Let's remember that, and really take this
approach that the interview process is
42:52
the matchmaking process, right?
42:57
Where we both interviewer sorry, employer,
and job seeker is equal party in.
43:00
That we both have skills, values, and
worth that we're trying to communicate,
43:05
and it's all about
communicating that information.
43:11
Honestly, right,
we were talking about this like,
43:15
having self awareness,
communicating honestly.
43:19
And asking ourselves,
did I represent myself properly?
43:22
And ultimately, asking, and
inquiring from a place of empowerment,
43:26
is this a good match?
43:30
And if you're following this framework
in whatever way it suits you.
43:32
I have seen that it leads you down to
this path of finding the right job.
43:39
And so yeah, thank you.
43:47
Hopefully that was helpful.
43:49
I'm gonna stop sharing.
43:50
That is me.
43:56
So I think we have some time for Q&A,
44:04
But I'll wait for Dr. Tony to pop back,
44:09
but I'm kinda reading through the chat.
44:14
Let's see, What do we get here?
44:20
Got a question saying what
would be considered a bad hire?
44:28
So, what would be considered a bad hire?
44:38
[INAUDIBLE] Right, like,
44:40
if we use the same framework that
I was just using the SVW, right?
44:42
A company has particular specific
expectations about the skills
44:45
that you are gonna perform.
44:50
Particular expectations
about what your value to,
44:53
what value you add to the company.
44:56
So, do you add to the processes,
the culture, to the growth of the company?
44:59
And ultimately,
compensation which is not so common.
45:04
But I think perhaps,
if you're not performing
45:09
to the level that maybe
a company was expecting.
45:13
Or you're disruptive to your teammates.
45:17
Or you're not getting
along with other people.
45:21
Or you're isolating yourself like that.
45:25
There are many reasons why maybe a company
might think that you're not a good match.
45:29
But there's also many
reasons why a worker, right?
45:34
A software engineer might think
that a company is not good match.
45:37
And it kinda falls under
the same framework,
45:41
like are my skills being underutilized.
45:44
Or am I being challenged way too much.
45:48
Or the company's culture is very toxic.
45:51
Or I'm getting under compensated, right?
45:55
That's also a reason why
it might be not a good fit.
45:58
Yeah, so
I'm seeing how some people were talking
46:05
about the cost of a bad hire,
getting the wrong job.
46:10
Yeah, it's a lot about like,
mental health.
46:15
Someone just shared Celeste,
or Celeste was sharing
46:20
about how a bad job took her
about a year to recover.
46:25
Yep, friends, and family sanity,
and all that, so true.
46:30
So, it's super important to figure
out if the company is a good match
46:35
because of that.
46:40
It's not just like,
46:41
you should just like ask a question
just to seem like you're smart.
46:43
It's like really important to figure it
out, especially if you're getting started.
46:46
Honestly.
46:50
Your first two jobs are going
to be super crucial for
46:51
the growth of your of your career.
46:54
If you get into a job where you're
being undervalued, you're being,
46:55
you know, undercut, it's going to have
a huge impact in terms of like how
47:00
much you get to grow in this industry,
right?
47:04
A lot of times, folks Quit this
industry because the first two jobs or
47:08
first three jobs are pretty bad, right?
47:13
Like they're toxic and
there's ways to avoid it.
47:16
And obviously, in an ideal world, most
companies would be compassionate would
47:18
be human centric would be, you know,
much more Healthier work environments,
47:24
but I think we have tools to be much
more picky, especially in the software
47:30
engineering field because
there's a huge demand for rolls.
47:35
So that's a that's a big one.
47:39
Just going through the chat.
47:45
Yeah, I know there are some job
descriptions that have like five to eight
47:48
years of experience for entry level
positions and that's ridiculous.
47:51
But, hey, still apply for it.
47:55
See if you know it was a mistake.
47:58
And maybe they'll call you,
you know, it happens.
48:01
So Alright, let's see.
48:04
Let's see Thank you all.
48:08
I am reading from the chat the Events tab.
48:12
Thank you all.
48:19
Alright, I'm looking at some questions.
48:20
How do you handle a scenario where
you are always interviewing but
48:22
you don't get any opportunities?
48:26
Handle a scenario where you're
always interviewing, but
48:29
you're not getting it out.
48:32
So you mean you're always interviewing but
you're not getting an offer.
48:33
Or I'm interpreting this
question like that.
48:37
And so the way that I would
use that framework, right?
48:40
Did you feel like it was a good match?
48:47
Right?
48:49
Were your skills aligned with
what they were looking for?
48:51
Was your value something that could
have been an add to their company?
48:55
Sometimes when people don't, you know,
companies don't call us back.
48:59
There's some sign that will
tell you why it was happening.
49:05
Like there's something
that They were looking for
49:10
that perhaps either you didn't communicate
or you don't have and that's totally fine.
49:12
But I think it's important that when
you're you're interviewing, ask a lot of
49:18
questions so you can figure that out so
that you're not left hanging and
49:21
I think that that's one of the most
frustrating parts about the interviewing
49:24
process is like feeling like you're left
hanging right like you're like okay.
49:28
They were like, they said that's not
a match, but they didn't tell me why.
49:32
Right So, so we don't get that feedback.
49:36
But I think we have a lot of
opportunity to figure that out.
49:40
So like asking,
what kind of person you're looking for
49:47
what kind of skills are you looking for?
49:50
What would like an ideal candidate for
this role be?
49:52
I'm trying to figure out because this
is what I have to bring to the table.
49:55
So I really want to know
if this will work out.
49:59
I see coming from a place of empowerment,
yeah, this is just who I am and
50:01
this is what I bring to the table.
50:06
So, I'm trying to figure this out.
50:08
How do you feel if you're ready to start
applying when you feel like you just
50:11
started as a career changer?
50:15
Okay, this is a great question.
50:18
I think that if you're a career
changer there are two routes, and
50:21
I don't have a lot of context into
whether or not you took a boot camp or
50:26
some kind of structured instruction
into web development or
50:32
software engineering or
if you're self taught, but
50:37
regardless if you're already thinking
about applying for a job, do it.
50:41
Do it because it's only through
the interview process that
50:46
you'll understand and
you'll get more insight.
50:51
So follow the same kind of framework
that I was talking about, right?
50:56
Know what your skills are, what your
values is, what your worth is, right?
50:59
Communicate it properly,
constantly ask yourself, hey,
51:03
am I representing myself properly?
51:08
And having conversations
with the employeers and
51:11
establishing those relationships and
figuring it out.
51:14
And if you're not getting a lot of
offers and you're having an inkling
51:17
that maybe it has to do because
you don't have enough skills.
51:22
And because that's what it's seeming like
from what the cues that you're getting,
51:28
then I would say then go back
to the drawing board and
51:33
maybe reach out to some of those
employers or figure out what is it that
51:37
you need to be focusing on and
then go back into the interview process.
51:42
So I'm not a big fan of learning as you're
interviewing because it creates much
51:47
more stress.
51:51
So I am a strong believer
that you already have skills.
51:53
It's very rare that someone goes out and
starts looking for
51:58
a job without any skills, right?
52:01
They're like balls out.
52:03
They're like, yeah,
I totally got this, right?
52:04
Most of the time we're
pretty conservative, right?
52:06
And so we're super cautious of getting
into the interview process because
52:09
we're intimidated by it.
52:14
And so a lot of times you're ready,
you have skills.
52:16
And so put them to test and
see what are employers looking for.
52:20
And maybe there's someone that's
really excited to hire you.
52:24
Especially if you're a career changer you
have so much experience that could be so
52:28
valuable to other people.
52:33
So just give it a shot,
just start applying,
52:35
start interviewing, yeah, don't hesitate.
52:39
What advice would you offer someone moving
into tech from a non-tech background?
52:43
Advice, you're extremely valuable.
52:50
All of the experience that you have in
your non-tech background is extremely
52:57
valuable.
53:02
You may not think that it is but
53:03
you have learned a ton about the work
environment, about yourself.
53:06
You have a very particular perspective,
53:12
bring that to the tech
world because we need it.
53:15
And so you're very valuable.
53:17
And I think that there
are employers that are looking for
53:20
that kind of expertise and
that kind of perspective.
53:23
So my advice would be to
kind of really own it.
53:28
And I understand that the tech world and
software engineering is intimidating and
53:34
seems really hard, but
if you really love it and
53:39
you're passionate about it
that's all that matters, right?
53:43
And show it and employers will hire you.
53:47
Literally, when I am hiring entry-level
folks, or entry-level roles,
53:50
I'm not so much looking for
the person who has the most skills, right?
53:55
It's not like,
how great is their react, and
54:00
maybe I'm talking a lot about front end
because that's my background, right?
54:03
I'm more so looking for someone that's
really excited about the job that
54:09
really wants to learn and that has a lot
of value to add to the culture, right?
54:14
So either they've worked in an industry
similar to this one before or
54:19
they've read a lot about this industry or
whatever clues or
54:24
cues about what value
they bring to the table.
54:28
So it's more about that,
especially in your first job.
54:32
Nobody is gonna be expecting
that you're a senior, and
54:36
if someone does then that's not
the job for you because they're crazy.
54:39
All right, let's see,
we still have five more minutes, I guess.
54:47
Nobody's kicking me out so
I'm just gonna keep on talking [LAUGH].
54:50
All right, so someone has a little bit
over a year and they're looking for
54:55
another job now.
55:00
Do I need to build a portfolio?
55:01
I came across a few job posting
that require a sample work, but
55:03
the projects I have
built are confidential.
55:06
That is totally fine.
55:09
You do not need a portfolio.
55:11
I mean, I think it's great to have a
portfolio if you have the desire to create
55:12
one, the time to create one,
but you don't need it.
55:17
I never had one.
55:20
I always wanted one, but I never did.
55:22
And when people would ask for
sample work, and I had been working
55:24
at large companies or code bases
that I didn't have samples from,
55:29
I would kind of just be honest about that,
right?
55:34
And I could ask them, hey,
55:37
is there a project I can work on to show
you a sample, a code, or if you have
55:39
the time maybe working on a tiny little
project on the side that you can show?
55:45
So I'm sure you have some kind of
project that you worked on that maybe
55:50
you're proud of, maybe when you
were learning, that you can show.
55:55
So it's totally okay and
just be honest, right?
56:00
Hey, most of my work has been at this
company and it's mostly confidential so
56:03
I can't really show you a sample but
56:07
I'm happy to work around a different
way to show that I have the skills.
56:09
So ask them, they might be
able to figure some other way.
56:14
Have you dealt with imposter syndrome and
how did you deal with it?
56:21
My God,
let's talk about imposter syndrome.
56:25
I struggled with imposter syndrome for
almost the entirety of my career.
56:28
I think that it still pops its
head every now and then, even now.
56:35
And the way to deal with
it is first to acknowledge
56:42
that imposter syndrome is the way
that we frame particular scenarios.
56:48
When I learned this, I was mind blown.
56:57
So someone who feels like an imposter,
right, has imposter syndrome.
56:59
When they're faced with
a challenge they believe that
57:05
they are not good enough and
that they will be found out, right?
57:10
So I would do this thing and
it was terrible.
57:16
If I was working on a project and
then got stuck and
57:23
could not figure out how to solve
the problem I would start thinking,
57:27
my God,
this means that I'm not good enough.
57:32
I cannot ask a question because if I ask
a question that means that they're gonna
57:36
know that I'm not good enough
because I bet you that this thing
57:40
is really simple and really easy.
57:43
And then I would stare at the computer for
a while.
57:46
And then as time went by I was like,
my God, now I definitely cannot ask for
57:49
help because I've been working on this for
days.
57:53
And my friend and
I used to call it the doom loop, right?
57:57
It's just creates this worsening
situation because you're in your head.
58:00
And so the best thing to do, and
58:06
this is something that I've
trained myself to do and
58:09
that I tell a lot of folks that I mentor,
is if you cannot find the answer or
58:13
a path to the answer in under
an hour you should ask for help.
58:20
And that asking for help does not
mean that you're less than at all.
58:27
On the contrary,
it means that you're mature, right?
58:31
Because it means that you know that
not everybody knows everything.
58:34
And that's the truth,
not everybody knows everything.
58:39
And when you ask for
help you make everybody better,
58:41
the person that's helping you, the
company, the project better because now
58:44
you're getting different insights,
different perspectives.
58:48
A lot of times when I was stuck,
it was things that were actually complex.
58:52
But in my mind I was like,
I bet you this is super easy.
58:58
I should know this, but I don't,
and just being stuck there.
59:01
So not isolating yourself is
the first one that I would tell you.
59:06
Reach out as soon as you feel
like you're a little bit stuck.
59:10
And then the second one is find
yourself a network of people that share
59:14
your same identity.
59:19
So whatever is important to
you in terms of your identity,
59:21
like what hobbies, race, gender,
ethnicity, whatever the case may be,
59:25
find folks that think like you or
are like you that are in tech.
59:31
It helps a ton because that
[INAUDIBLE] is super comforting cuz
59:37
a lot of times imposter syndrome
happens when we feel very isolated,
59:41
when we feel like we don't belong,
when we're the only one.
59:46
I was constantly the only woman,
the only person of color, and so
59:50
I had this sense that I had
to prove myself, right?
59:54
And so
those two things are pretty key, but
59:58
don't put too much pressure on yourself.
1:00:01
It's a process, and
just be compassionate with yourself.
1:00:04
And that's the other thing,
just be compasionate with yourself.
1:00:07
Are you able to land a job
without a portfolio?
1:00:13
Yes, absolutely,
you do not need a portfolio.
1:00:16
It helps if you do have projects to
showcase, but you don't really have to.
1:00:19
Okay, it is 4:01, nobody's kicking me out
and I am still scrolling through the chat.
1:00:27
So hopefully we're still at it.
1:00:34
Okay, let's see.
1:00:39
Okay, I've applied for
30 jobs, 0 responses,
1:00:47
do I need a machine gun to machine gun
my resume 100 times to get an answer?
1:00:51
This is a great one.
1:00:57
So 30 companies, okay, so
just to frame the situation.
1:00:58
Cold applying is one of the hardest
way to get a job, it sucks.
1:01:07
It's pretty terrible, but it's true.
1:01:14
So when you cold apply, meaning you
just apply to a company, right,
1:01:17
from their apply link thing without
a reference or a referral, that resume or
1:01:22
that application is going to a pile of
who knows how many other applications.
1:01:28
So it doesn't mean necessarily
that your resume is bad or
1:01:34
that you don't have the skills, right?
1:01:38
It could mean many things.
1:01:40
It could mean, one, your application's
at the bottom of the pile and
1:01:42
they haven't gotten to it yet.
1:01:47
Two, your application's at
the bottom of the pile but
1:01:49
they already found someone
on the top part of the pile.
1:01:53
It can mean many, many things, right?
1:01:58
It could mean that maybe
your application or
1:02:01
your resume doesn't kind of match
to what they're looking for.
1:02:03
I would definitely suggest
continuing to apply to other jobs.
1:02:07
However, the best way to find a job
is through people that you know,
1:02:13
is through referrals, and
it sucks because it means that people
1:02:18
who have the most connections are gonna
have the easiest time finding jobs.
1:02:24
But what I would do is reach out to
people that you know in industry.
1:02:31
So if you went through boot camp, have
a good relationship with your instructors,
1:02:36
with your mentors, with your peers,
so that people can keep an eye.
1:02:43
You can reach out to people on LinkedIn.
1:02:49
Go to a lot of these networking events.
1:02:52
Like for example, me,
now you know me, reach out to me.
1:02:55
Connect with me on LinkedIn and
that's a way for me to be like,
1:03:00
hey, maybe I can suggest
a particular job that I just saw and
1:03:05
that will get you a better chance.
1:03:10
But, yeah, you definitely want
to apply to more jobs and delay.
1:03:12
So if you apply for 30 jobs in the past
two weeks, what did you, yeah.
1:03:19
It might take a couple of months for
them to get back to you or
1:03:22
a couple of weeks to get back to you.
1:03:26
So it all depends.
1:03:28
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